Quote Originally Posted by Absimiliard View Post
I'll grant you the Mol. I don't actually know what they are communing with, but we do know it seems to work out pretty well. That being said, I believe we are limiting our definition of god to actual (non-primal) divine beings with godly powers for the purposes of this discussion.
At which point there needs to be a definition of "godly powers". Far Eastern Auspices are described as being "deities in their own right" (Encyclopedia Eorzea II pg 18), and they certainly exist and are real and have superpowers.

And then there are the kami which we actually encounter, such as Tsukumo, who is, as it was, a tsukumogami.

Exactly. Louisoix knew well the power of faith itself. He appears to have been bereft of it himself, but he understood full well what could be done by utilizing the collective faith of the Eorzeans alongside a significant amount of aether. I do not dispute this. I dispute that The Twelve are actual existing divine beings.
And I am saying that I don't actually think it's relevant to the story whether the Twelve actually exist as divine beings. I also don't think we'll ever find out, since it doesn't seem to be something the lore writers want to tackle conclusively.

Again, no one is disputing the fact that a primal version of something can be summoned while the real thing exists. The existence of The Twelve as actual divine beings is being disputed. The preponderance of available evidence appears to suggest that they are not, in fact, real within the context of the game's reality. What Louisoix summoned was indeed a group of primals, albeit primals that he wisely denied complete forms or a will of their own. He effectively and intelligently turned the Eorzeans' faith into a weapon to use against Dalamud. While this effort failed, the remaining aether from his attempt was sufficient for he himself to become vessel to a primal in a manner not unlike what Ysayle did.
"Pseudo-Primal" is what we've kind of settled on in the Lore forums, due to the weirdness of Louisoix managing to mantle Phoenix into himself, but then getting tempered by Bahamut anyway, which is the only instance this ever happened. So special pleading had to be worked out, and we don't really know how applicable any of it is.

Also Louisoix's spell to send the adventurers into the future apparently had the sigil of Althyk, so if we take that as canon, he is still using the symbology of the Twelve when using the aether from the prayers of Eorzeans for that purpose, and yet somehow not when he turned into Phoenix. I don't know how significant this is, and I will also concede that basing lore on details in cinematic trailers is probably not the best idea.