fate of emperor varis at the end

[MrThinker]

https://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/anni...?rgn=na&lng=en Right here. Louisoix clearly states his opinion on the Twelve in this entry.

There is zero evidence at this time of actual gods existing within the world of FFXIV. The one entity that was originally presented in a manner that all but confirmed its godhood has been revealed as just an excessively powerful primal. Even the Kami are shown to be little more than the product of aether and belief.

Yes, at this point, it is highly unlikely that the Twelve are REAL gods per se, but I would like to point out that this story was from a time when people still understood the primals to actually be gods (and something we labored under the misunderstanding of until Hraesvelgr, and later Tiamat, spelled it out to us in Heavensward that primals are just myth made manifest) and thus Louisoix most likely still believed that Twelve were gods as well. Also Louisoix never decried the worship of the Twelve, but the actual physical manifestation of them through the summoning ritual.
As to whether or not the Twelve existed, just as primal Shiva, Moggle Mog, Garuda and Thordan were based on real people, it can be that the myths of the Twelve were also based on real people as well, mayhap fragmented Ancients who still held some of their races vast power during the 'Age of Gods' that followed the Sundering but before the First Umbral Calamity that allowed them to do things that some might consider divine or godly and lead to their worship as fact became myth over time.

[LineageRazor]

https://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/anni...?rgn=na&lng=en Right here. Louisoix clearly states his opinion on the Twelve in this entry.

There is zero evidence at this time of actual gods existing within the world of FFXIV. The one entity that was originally presented in a manner that all but confirmed its godhood has been revealed as just an excessively powerful primal. Even the Kami are shown to be little more than the product of aether and belief.

As MrThinker pointed out, nothing in that Tale From the Calamity stands contrary to what I wrote: That Louisoix was justifiably afraid that the Twelve would be summoned as Primals. Nothing there contradicts the possibility that he ALSO believes in the Twelve as GODS, distinct from Primals, and of which Primals would be mockeries.

As for there being zero evidence that the Twelve exist as real gods (aside from the faith of the people), I agree. But that is completely irrelevant. This is gods we're talking about - religion. Religion does not need to have incontrovertible proof or evidence. That's what faith is all about - believing, even when there's little reason to believe, aside from the fact that other people believe! And, because it's a fantasy world, the possibility remains on the table that that belief will pay off - that at some point down the road, the gods WILL reveal themselves. If it happens, this would be far from the first work of fantasy to do such a thing.

The fact that the Garleans' policy on religion is one of hardcore atheism makes it all the more likely in my mind that this will turn out to be the case. The writers LOVE to dunk on the Garleans, painting them as cruel, incompetent, and above all WRONG in just about everything they do. Turning out to be wrong about the Twelve would be just one more point of Epic Fail on the Garleans' ever-growing pile.

[Absimiliard]

As MrThinker pointed out, nothing in that Tale From the Calamity stands contrary to what I wrote: That Louisoix was justifiably afraid that the Twelve would be summoned as Primals. Nothing there contradicts the possibility that he ALSO believes in the Twelve as GODS, distinct from Primals, and of which Primals would be mockeries.

Nothing Louisoix said in-game at any point in the original game indicated any sort of piety on his part either. He was a very matter-of-fact type of person, even questioning why people had need of belief in things like The Twelve at one point. It is highly unlikely that he would have regarded them as anything more than the primals they probably are. There is therefore zero evidence of Louisoix having any sort of faith in The Twelve either. He was a firm supporter of the "never believe anything without proof" line of thinking.

We'll just have to see what they do with The Twelve, but I personally do hope they are proven to be nothing more than primals. Actual gods existing would go against everything we've been shown about the in-game universe thus far.

[YianKutku]

Nothing Louisoix said in-game at any point in the original game indicated any sort of piety on his part either. He was a very matter-of-fact type of person, even questioning why people had need of belief in things like The Twelve at one point. It is highly unlikely that he would have regarded them as anything more than the primals they probably are. There is therefore zero evidence of Louisoix having any sort of faith in The Twelve either. He was a firm supporter of the "never believe anything without proof" line of thinking.

We'll just have to see what they do with The Twelve, but I personally do hope they are proven to be nothing more than primals. Actual gods existing would go against everything we've been shown about the in-game universe thus far.

The Mol seem to do quite well with their auguries to their gods, so I am willing to entertain the idea that some sort of god-like beings really do look out for them. It doesn't actually matter how powerful these hypothetical beings are; if they're worshipped, they're gods.

Louisoix was clearly a believer in the power of belief in the Twelve, and planned his big spell to contain Bahamut around that belief. Whether the Twelve actually exist or are Primals was irrelevant to his purposes: what he needed was the Eorzeans' faith.

However, he was careful in his spell preparations, because he also knew that misguided faith could summon Primal versions of the Twelve, which would have come into being regardless if the Twelve actually exist. For a more contemporary example, we have Shiva, whose "soul" apparently still resides with Hraesvelgr, but Ysayle was able to summon a Primal version of Shiva anyway. So Saint Shiva is real and not a Primal, and Ysayle's Shiva is also real and a Primal. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Absimiliard]

The Mol seem to do quite well with their auguries to their gods, so I am willing to entertain the idea that some sort of god-like beings really do look out for them. It doesn't actually matter how powerful these hypothetical beings are; if they're worshipped, they're gods.

I'll grant you the Mol. I don't actually know what they are communing with, but we do know it seems to work out pretty well. That being said, I believe we are limiting our definition of god to actual (non-primal) divine beings with godly powers for the purposes of this discussion.

was clearly a believer in the power of belief in the Twelve, and planned his big spell to contain Bahamut around that belief. Whether the Twelve actually exist or are Primals was irrelevant to his purposes: what he needed was the Eorzeans' faith.

Exactly. Louisoix knew well the power of faith itself. He appears to have been bereft of it himself, but he understood full well what could be done by utilizing the collective faith of the Eorzeans alongside a significant amount of aether. I do not dispute this. I dispute that The Twelve are actual existing divine beings.

However, he was careful in his spell preparations, because he also knew that misguided faith could summon Primal versions of the Twelve, which would have come into being regardless if the Twelve actually exist. For a more contemporary example, we have Shiva, whose "soul" apparently still resides with Hraesvelgr, but Ysayle was able to summon a Primal version of Shiva anyway. So Saint Shiva is real and not a Primal, and Ysayle's Shiva is also real and a Primal. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Again, no one is disputing the fact that a primal version of something can be summoned while the real thing exists. The existence of The Twelve as actual divine beings is being disputed. The preponderance of available evidence appears to suggest that they are not, in fact, real within the context of the game's reality. What Louisoix summoned was indeed a group of primals, albeit primals that he wisely denied complete forms or a will of their own. He effectively and intelligently turned the Eorzeans' faith into a weapon to use against Dalamud. While this effort failed, the remaining aether from his attempt was sufficient for he himself to become vessel to a primal in a manner not unlike what Ysayle did.

So far everything we've been lead to believe was some manner of god or godly servant turned out to be either;
A.) A full blown primal.
B.) A creature that has adopted primal-like qualities through a combination of time, aether, and belief.
C.) Something some might consider a lesser primal; entities whose existences are tied to aether and belief, but whose overall power simply does not measure up to what we typically refer to as a primal.
D.) A flat out hoax.

[YianKutku]

I'll grant you the Mol. I don't actually know what they are communing with, but we do know it seems to work out pretty well. That being said, I believe we are limiting our definition of god to actual (non-primal) divine beings with godly powers for the purposes of this discussion.

At which point there needs to be a definition of "godly powers". Far Eastern Auspices are described as being "deities in their own right" (Encyclopedia Eorzea II pg 18), and they certainly exist and are real and have superpowers.

And then there are the kami which we actually encounter, such as Tsukumo, who is, as it was, a tsukumogami.

Exactly. Louisoix knew well the power of faith itself. He appears to have been bereft of it himself, but he understood full well what could be done by utilizing the collective faith of the Eorzeans alongside a significant amount of aether. I do not dispute this. I dispute that The Twelve are actual existing divine beings.

And I am saying that I don't actually think it's relevant to the story whether the Twelve actually exist as divine beings. I also don't think we'll ever find out, since it doesn't seem to be something the lore writers want to tackle conclusively.

Again, no one is disputing the fact that a primal version of something can be summoned while the real thing exists. The existence of The Twelve as actual divine beings is being disputed. The preponderance of available evidence appears to suggest that they are not, in fact, real within the context of the game's reality. What Louisoix summoned was indeed a group of primals, albeit primals that he wisely denied complete forms or a will of their own. He effectively and intelligently turned the Eorzeans' faith into a weapon to use against Dalamud. While this effort failed, the remaining aether from his attempt was sufficient for he himself to become vessel to a primal in a manner not unlike what Ysayle did.

"Pseudo-Primal" is what we've kind of settled on in the Lore forums, due to the weirdness of Louisoix managing to mantle Phoenix into himself, but then getting tempered by Bahamut anyway, which is the only instance this ever happened. So special pleading had to be worked out, and we don't really know how applicable any of it is.

Also Louisoix's spell to send the adventurers into the future apparently had the sigil of Althyk, so if we take that as canon, he is still using the symbology of the Twelve when using the aether from the prayers of Eorzeans for that purpose, and yet somehow not when he turned into Phoenix. I don't know how significant this is, and I will also concede that basing lore on details in cinematic trailers is probably not the best idea.

[Absimiliard]

The problem with the auspices is that they basically work like primals. They still run off of aether and belief. I will, however, concede that EE II does refer to them as deities in their own right, and I do imagine the fit the definition of deities in-universe. They are quite extensively worshiped. I'm really not sure how to categorize them in relation to primals, however. They are somewhere between primal embodiment (Ysayle and Louisoix) and full blown summoning. I wish we had more info on'em. The Kami also run off of belief and aether.

I may be able to offer some insight into the situation with Louisoix, however. The Warring Triad was believed to be able to actually temper other primals because of the sheer amount of power they'd come to possess. Bahamut did not necessarily confirm that the Warring Triad could do it, but he does prove that a powerful enough primal can subdue those weaker than themselves. Louisoix allowed his body to disperse into aether upon defeating Bahamut, his intention being to return to the land what he had taken. This was partially successful; he returned a large quantity of aether, but doing so weakened him enough for Bahamut to ensnare his mind and temper him. Given a new physical body, he would continue to act as a servant of Bahamut until freed of tempering mere moments after his defeat and before his dissolution back into aether.

[YianKutku]

The problem with the auspices is that they basically work like primals. They still run off of aether and belief.

They do not. Well, they run off aether, but so does everyone and everything else.

Auspices come to be when an animal lives for a surprisingly long time and gains sapience and superpowers, and it is never explained why certain animals manage to do so. They are only worshipped after the fact, sometimes to their detriment. One could perhaps speculate that the "belief" in question is the belief in the concept of auspices in general, which somehow leads to a consensus reality situation where auspices occur because people believe auspices will occur, but that is again unsupported speculation and not confirmed by any source.

[Theodric]

We'll just have to see what they do with The Twelve, but I personally do hope they are proven to be nothing more than primals. Actual gods existing would go against everything we've been shown about the in-game universe thus far.

Agreed. I'm very much of the belief that the reins of history should be firmly placed into the hands of man rather than false deities or actual deities.

Strictly regulating the use of aether and worship would also prevent a lot of issues across all of Hydaelyn.

[Kusanagi7]

im of the opinion the twelve are the the 12 individuals that summoned hydaelyn.