So after waiting for about 2 weeks to see the consequence of homogenization

[MaelleRiou]

This is an unfortunate aspect of MMOs. The more jobs that get added, the harder it is for them all to have unique buffs and utility while still being balanced with each other.

Having a situation like Stormblood where groups pretty much always wanted a bard and dragoon for their utility over other DPS of their role is problematic and becomes increasingly more so the more jobs that are added.

Should bard utility still be at Stormblood level where they're almost always the physical ranged of choice? What then would be the point of machinist and dancer?

The party buffs are probably the least interesting part of jobs anyway. It's either a long cooldown you use once every 2-3 minutes like Devotion or it's just something that's a passive part of your rotation like bard songs were in Stormblood. Ultimately, the uniqueness of each job should be in how it plays, not so much in what buff it brings to the party.

I do think part of the problem is the insistence on very tight DPS requirements for raid fights that it pushes people into optimizing everything about their group and moving away from every fight being a DPS check fight would allow for a bit more room. Hard for a red mage to get much benefit out of their raise when the reduced damage from the death might cause a wipe anyway.

[TcomJ]

This is an unfortunate aspect of MMOs. The more jobs that get added, the harder it is for them all to have unique buffs and utility while still being balanced with each other.

Having a situation like Stormblood where groups pretty much always wanted a bard and dragoon for their utility over other DPS of their role is problematic and becomes increasingly more so the more jobs that are added.

Should bard utility still be at Stormblood level where they're almost always the physical ranged of choice? What then would be the point of machinist and dancer?

The party buffs are probably the least interesting part of jobs anyway. It's either a long cooldown you use once every 2-3 minutes like Devotion or it's just something that's a passive part of your rotation like bard songs were in Stormblood. Ultimately, the uniqueness of each job should be in how it plays, not so much in what buff it brings to the party.

I do think part of the problem is the insistence on very tight DPS requirements for raid fights that it pushes people into optimizing everything about their group and moving away from every fight being a DPS check fight would allow for a bit more room. Hard for a red mage to get much benefit out of their raise when the reduced damage from the death might cause a wipe anyway.

For MCH main, party buffs are not interesting then don't have it for MCH as you like MCH for that. For many bard players and DNC players they are interesting.

And I don't know what MMO you play where the more jobs they add, the homogenization becomes prominient and job identities fade away.

Ragnarok for example has no problem of that whatsoever. They never have to rework or remove abilities from old jobs and the more new job they add, the more unique and weird they get.


Right now, the only buff people can think of is damage buff in this game that's relevant. Hence, such is the reason why there can be no other kind of buff. We removed TP, though as convenient for some jobs and abilities spamming, there is now less factors for buff to occurs.

The more resource you remove, the less flexibility of stats manipulation and interactions you get.

The game is designed to rely heavily on 1-2 character stats, and buffing any other stats such as say sks for mnk or mch is/was a no no.

But say Ragnarok, you can buff elemental attack, you can buff TP, you can buff agi, str, vit, int, debuff this and that, cast speed, sks, luck all across the board. Even elemental combo is such a thing.
That creates depth and exploration and the emphasis of meta doesn't rely on a few jobs but diversify and spread across the jobs and stats.

And now we have what we call inflation of DPS number and discrimination of meta based on DPS number. Because we remove all these factors, in the end people discriminate the only thing that only matter, DPS.

Even Ragnarok introduces Bard and then Dancer, they never have removed bard abilities for dancers.

[MaelleRiou]

For MCH main, party buffs are not interesting then don't have it for MCH as you like MCH for that. For many bard players and DNC players they are interesting.

And I don't know what MMO you play where the more jobs they add, the homogenization becomes prominient and job identities fade away.

Ragnarok for example has no problem of that whatsoever. They never have to rework or remove abilities from old jobs and the more new job they add, the more unique and weird they get.


Right now, the only buff people can think of is damage buff in this game that's relevant. Hence, such is the reason why there can be no other kind of buff. We removed TP, though as convenient for some jobs and abilities spamming, there is now less factors for buff to occurs.

The more resource you remove, the less flexibility of stats manipulation and interactions you get.

The game is designed to rely heavily on 1-2 character stats, and buffing any other stats such as say sks for mnk or mch is/was a no no.

But say Ragnarok, you can buff elemental attack, you can buff TP, you can buff agi, str, vit, int, debuff this and that, cast speed, sks, luck all across the board. Even elemental combo is such a thing.
That creates depth and exploration and the emphasis of meta doesn't rely on a few jobs but diversify and spread across the jobs and stats.

And now we have what we call inflation of DPS number and discrimination of meta based on DPS number. Because we remove all these factors, in the end people discriminate the only thing that only matter, DPS.

Even Ragnarok introduces Bard and then Dancer, they never have removed bard abilities for dancers.

Because Ragnarok doesn't really have end game raiding so classes don't necessarily need to be balanced with that in mind.

I didn't find bard's party buffs in Stormblood to be that interesting at all. It was just 3% bonus to crit that passively happened as you did your DPS rotation and Battle Voice and Foe Requiem is just a "Do this when the raid leader tells you to" ability.

I think Dancer is the only class that has ever had interesting raid buffs, well, single target buff, since it's more than just occasionally pressing a button when the raid leader says to or passively buffing people for just being there.

[TcomJ]

Because Ragnarok doesn't really have end game raiding so classes don't necessarily need to be balanced with that in mind.

I didn't find bard's party buffs in Stormblood to be that interesting at all. It was just 3% bonus to crit that passively happened as you did your DPS rotation and Battle Voice and Foe Requiem is just a "Do this when the raid leader tells you to" ability.

I think Dancer is the only class that has ever had interesting raid buffs, well, single target buff, since it's more than just occasionally pressing a button when the raid leader says to or passively buffing people for just being there.

Ragnarok has plenty of super bosses and dungeon raids and raid events. Do you ever play it?
And how do you play bard in stormblood and only geto to level 50 and mch is lvl 70?
That 2% crit bonus (not 3% never has been) at lest make the songs actually songs coincide to the lore of the job. Sing to buff ally. Since you don't like bard, you play mch, make sense? And then there is the Trabadour that was a three version buff depending on the songs you are currently playing, though situational and buggy on mage ballad trabadour, it was a nice creative start. Then there is the Foe Requiem, arguably the identy of bard which was removed. You play the 2% crit is like 1/5th of Litany the whole entire raid duration, that's huge.

You find DNC buff interesting? You don't even have the job. And their buffs are literally just damage buff, crit buff, heals both single target and partywide. Still the same from bard just different numbers of target and stat numbers.

I start to think you are trolling.

[MaelleRiou]

Ragnarok has plenty of super bosses and dungeon raids and raid events. Do you ever play it?
And how do you play bard in stormblood and only geto to level 50 and mch is lvl 70?
That 2% crit bonus (not 3% never has been) at lest make the songs actually songs coincide to the lore of the job. Sing to buff ally. Since you don't like bard, you play mch, make sense? And then there is the Trabadour that was a three version buff depending on the songs you are currently playing, though situational and buggy on mage ballad trabadour, it was a nice creative start. Then there is the Foe Requiem, arguably the identy of bard which was removed. You play the 2% crit is like 1/5th of Litany the whole entire raid duration, that's huge.

You find DNC buff interesting? You don't even have the job. And their buffs are literally just damage buff, crit buff, heals both single target and partywide. Still the same from bard just different numbers of target and stat numbers.

I start to think you are trolling.

"Don't like bard, play machinist" You mean like in Stormblood when most groups took bards and not machinists? Sounds a lot like "I want my ranged DPS to be the only one groups use."

[TcomJ]

"Don't like bard, play machinist" You mean like in Stormblood when most groups took bards and not machinists? Sounds a lot like "I want my ranged DPS to be the only one groups use."

I knew it. So you want bard to be like worse MCH so you advocate to remove all bard buff while MCH get even more DPS? right. Good for the game.

[MaelleRiou]

I knew it. So you want bard to be like worse MCH so you advocate to remove all bard buff while MCH get even more DPS? right. Good for the game.

No. How things are right now is fine. All 3 physical ranged DPS bring roughly the same value to raids so a raid group can pick any of the 3 they wish to bring.

Instead of being like Stormblood where it was bard or go home. Which seems to be what you want to return to.