Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

[Absimiliard]

probably my wording sorry but there is no such thing of NIN being kicked by just being NIN, i belive thats even reportable, the only way a NIN it's going to being kicked from anywhere is by doing a terrible job as a player and that rule can be apply to all jobs in the game, the whole thing im kick you from being a NIN doesn't exist, im kicking you bcs you are bad and cost us several trys or you are a ice mage kinda player since DPS related kicks can't be prove bcs parser stuff except if you fail a obvious dps check.

Can you prove this assertion? I would like for you to prove to me that there is not a single player currently in the game that will kick you just for being a ninja. That's an awfully sweeping statement, especially considering the number of complaints that you are for whatever reason denying the existence of.

And even in pre-final coil period, Dragoons were not kicked en masse from casual content, especially since you have to wait 15 minutes to even kick someone, and by that time, most casual content is finished.

That's kinda the point. People would wait until right before the final boss and kick them to screw them over. It's the same thing a small number of people are doing to ninjas now.

[TheForce]

oh another drk topic

the job is fine.
if you don't like the way it works play a different tank
also i see lot's of "wrong" opinions cause they are based on wrong information. please understand the class first before you judge it.

with that out of the way: yes, even i wouldn't mind a change of living dead

I've been seeing your posts around a bit lately, and in each one you always have such a cynical attitude and try to basically belittle the OP for creating the thread. It's pretty annoying honestly, and makes you seem very unlikeable, but aside from that, from a straight performance standpoint (meaning how well the class can work its way through content and whether it can even clear content) the Dark Knight is...okay. It's not like the group is doomed if there's a DRK Tank, and they do have a FEW neat skills (mainly just TBN though). At the same time though, they have some pretty horrid skills that need to be looked at (mainly LD and 5.0 base Quietus). Nonetheless, the problem that I and many others have with the class is with its overall design. Sure, the class can clear content, but will it be enjoyable or feel satisfying while you do so? I'll admit this is a somewhat subjective point, but to me, it's silly to think that a class being essentially a night-themed version of a class that already exists while also having less tools and options than said class, is okay. At the end of the day, sure people will enjoy what they enjoy, but ignoring Dark Knight's obvious design shortcomings is a problem.


That being said, I've accepted that the core design of the new DRK (which is exactly what I despise) probably won't change, so my response to that was to pull a Cecil :P

[Jandor]

Can you prove this assertion? I would like for you to prove to me that there is not a single player currently in the game that will kick you just for being a ninja. That's an awfully sweeping statement, especially considering the number of complaints that you are for whatever reason denying the existence of.

They don't owe you proof when you never bothered to prove your own claim.

[Arsthan]

Can you prove this assertion? I would like for you to prove to me that there is not a single player currently in the game that will kick you just for being a ninja. That's an awfully sweeping statement, especially considering the number of complaints that you are for whatever reason denying the existence of.

Pretty sure he meant that NIN isn't getting kicked from casual content like roulettes and dungeons, which I agree with. The only place where NIN is getting locked out of is savage and maaaaaybe some EX trials. If a NIN is getting kicked out from dungeons and stuff, you can bet your butt that there's a good reason as to why he's being kicked out - like heavily getting carried, just standing and watching the others do the job etc. I'd kick people like that too, no matter the job. The only jobs in somehow tolerate are healers that only heal, but let's not go down this never ending debate.

[shao32]

Can you prove this assertion? I would like for you to prove to me that there is not a single player currently in the game that will kick you just for being a ninja. That's an awfully sweeping statement, especially considering the number of complaints that you are for whatever reason denying the existence of.

well you are the one that affirm that there is a big problem of NIN discrimination among the game, in any case it should be you bringing proofs of that, it should be easy since it happens a lot right?

i dont deny NIN problems, they even are gonna get a rework mid expansion but the only complaints i see about NIN apart of his mudra desing is his DPS is lower that expected and they are a bit overcomplicated to manage, thats a problem of course a one that is going to be solved but i don't see a single complaing that NIN are being kicked "if they are" bcs they are NIN and screw you NIN you job is s*** im gonna kick you on the last boss, so please bring you those proofs bcs i can't get in every roulette party you know and prove other thing bcs it will be a normal run.

[Reynhart]

That's kinda the point. People would wait until right before the final boss and kick them to screw them over. It's the same thing a small number of people are doing to ninjas now.

At that point, the job could be the best job in the world for all that matters. Those people are just being douchebags, and could kick an overpowered samurai just because "Samurai players are just weeaboos"...Which has nothing to do with balance.

Heck, up until the end of HW, lots of healers were still uncomfortable with WAR because "Everybody knows that WAR are much squishier than PLD"...

[ArianeEwah]

Aside from TBN, I feel like GNB is what HW DRK used to be, or what DRK should have been in SB/ShB.

Strong single target Dot (man, do I miss Scourge and its animation - good old 'look mom, I can Fell Cleave, too!'), fast paced and busy gameplay during bursts (Continuation plays basically like old Dark Arts, but used after a skill instead), and Camouflage feels like Dark Dance, but stronger and more useful - if we ignore the DA evasion effect that is.
I could've simply accepted DRK being a completely new/revised job now - tho very similar to WAR... (too much for my taste...) but there are also some things that I think GNB doesn't deserve when compared to DRK.

1st the charge (Rough Divide/Plunge): DRK was the first and only tank during HW that had a charge, which made it unique. It gained signiture and identity through it. Truth be told, it was clunky... it had a long animation lock, but for the overall kit of HW DRK it was fine. With SB WAR got Onslaught, with a 5 yalm higher charge range and shorter animation lock. WAR charge became superior to Plunge. At least SE did shorten the animation lock on Plunge later during SB.
Now in ShB all tanks have a charge, 3 of them actually the (almost) very same charge - PLD-Intervene, GNB-Rough Divide, DRK-Plunge. On lvl 80 they are essentially even... BUT it's a complete different story pre-80. Like I mentioned before DRK charge used to be unique - superior! What makes me sad is that right now it is neither unique nor superior. PLD get their charge at 74, that's fine. GNB get theirs on 56 - while DRK get Plunge on 54 - that is... fair enough. But it's totally unfair that the 'new guy' - GNB - instantly gets 2 stacks of their charge while DRK - the tank that used to be superior because it was the only tank with a charge - still has 1 stack up until 78! Imo it ruined the leveling exp on DRK, and I feel DRK lost their identity once again - first to Onslaught, now to Rough Divide.

2nd mitigation pre-70 - TBN/HoS, Dark Mind/Camouflage, Heart of Light/Dark Missionary: With HoL being accessible pre-70, DRK remains as the single one and only tank without any AoE (magic) mitigation til 76. HW DRK was the parry-magic/anti-magic tank because it could mitigate magic with Dark Mind, made constant use of mana, and had parry-based proc-mechanics and mitigation. With Dark Dance/Anticipation gone it doesn't have any good fluff mitigation pre-70 either, as Dark Mind remains magic only. Camouflage/HoS, Thrill of Battle/Raw Intuition and Sheltron all mitigate at least a bit of both damage types. This just adds in destroying DRK identity it used to have. DRK doesn't parry anymore and their magic mitigation is not as strong anymore because the other tanks' mitigation tools all soften magic attacks, too. Something is definitly missing and once again it ruins the leveling experience, or even 70 content - e.g. old savage fights or Ultimates.

3rd no additional combo (finisher): PLD and WAR both still have 1 additional combo finisher, heck, GNB even got a whole additional combo. But DRK remains on its standard 1-2-3! And it's boring to the bone. HW DRK had depth in their combos: Delirium combo had higher potency when you skipped DA or had no mana for it (and applied INT down as a 'bonus'), DA Souleater was saved for burst windows or when you would overcap on mana otherwise. In SB they removed it for whatever reason, and dumbed its rotation down. DRK used to be a tank you needed to think steps ahead in your rotation to play optimal. A dull 1-2-3 combo without any variation is the worst for the tank that used to be an advanced job for experienced player or those who sought a challange. No other melee job in this game has only 1 combo!

DA during HW was fine - and fun. I still don't get the dev team's decision that Syphon Strike used DA, too. That's actually what ruined 'DA'. DA was not bad, but it got applied to skill that it shouldn't have to. They saw it was bad on Dark Mind, so they changed it base value - and they did the same with Dark Passanger! Make it bad with 4.0 - then FINALLY listen to the community and change it back or made it better.
I also think that Bow Shock is better than Salted Earth - I hate ground-targeting abilities like these... and it's also pretty weak, it almost feels useless (300 potency on 90s CD is kinda lame).

Tbh I don't like the new DRK. I like the way it plays because I also like to play WAR. But I hate its design, its new identity - because it plays like WAR... with a few more oGCDs. I also miss its old playstyle... but I guess that's why I enjoy GNB...

I think if DRK had recieved a design change as big as the one MCH had, it could have been a way more unique and more enjoyable job.

[ArashiStormbreaker]

New in the game, Tank always in almost every MMO I played. I choosed to be a Dark Knight for the theme and off course because Cecil was one of my Fav character on FF Games

As tank I feel the DRK need or more outside of the GDC Skill or another different single target combo to be less... 1,2,3 .

Also I feel like it's almost imposible to get all the Agro if there ir another tank who isn't a DRK, only if I use the taunt I can get the aggro but only when use it and losing it really fast. when the other is a Gunsbreaker it's like. well, now I'm another dps ... without the dmg numbers part.

a to me with a small tuning could make it more fun to play, a lot more!. SE, use your data, and the feedback please!

[Seku]

Okay, let's review.

HW Dark Mind. 60-second cooldown. 15% mitigation. 30% on Dark Arts. Comparable to Equilibrium, which would usually heal for far more than DM's base absorption.
HW Dark Dance. 60-second cooldown. 30% increased chance of ~25% physical mitigation. 20% chance 100% mitigation to all damage types on Dark Arts. Comparable, again, to Equilibrium, which would usually heal for more than DD's base absorption.

Are these (1) a sign of DRK being an "anti-magic tank" or (2) simply a "tank" with a more discreet potency-cost option for its increased mitigation, comparable to, say, Inner Beast (without the necessary stance-swap and attached 10-second committal)?

HW Delirium. 10% Intelligence down. Compare to HW PLD's Rage of Halone for 10% Strength down and HW WAR Storm's Path for 10% damage down.

Again, is this that (1) DRK was uniquely an anti-magic tank or (2) WAR was uniquely (and perhaps overly) versatile?

I would argue the latter in both cases. WAR was generally right up there as an anti-magic tank. DRK simply allowed for more discreet and layered control over its kit.

If you're going to call preferring that one tank's only percentile AoE mitigation -- at a greater cooldown and far lesser applicability than, and massive cost relative to, Dark Missionary -- should be weaker than the far more easily utilized and shorter cooldown DRK percentile AoE mitigation tool, then at least show me, definitively, how XIV DRK's primary theme was that it was "anti-caster" despite having little to no eHP advantage against magic over the other tanks in HW and SB respectively.

tl;dr: DRK is not an anti-magic tank, never has been, and hopefully never will be, because that would just be an outright nerf without any real addition of identity. It's identity was more numerous and precise means of manipulation, or trade-offs, in its mitigation toolkit and above-average counter-play. And, unwittingly or not, you're asking that such an identity would be even further squished just to push DRK towards a state in which it is faintly advantaged in certain fights and effectively banned from the rest.

Also,
The two skills are identical.
Heart of Light: 15y range. 90-second CD. 15-second duration. 10% magic-only mitigation.
Dark Missionary: 15y range. 90-second CD. 15-second duration. 10% magic-only mitigation.

1. Signs that it was a magical tank. It being pushed out of MT role for physical fights was actually a major argument. The only reason it did so well in savage content was due to the fact that most Tank busters were magical. TBN assisted in some what fixing this in stormsblood and still does so today.

2. Signs that DRK was being pushed to magic tank, PLD to physical (more so since shieldtron only blocked physical attacks and for the 30%, which is the same as Dark Mind buffed) and yes Warrior was overtuned. So I'd have to say both were true. The only reason that DRK was taken in by groups is due to the limit break bar being filled at a slower rate due to taking multiple of the same job.

Why would I need to show you the eHP? Dark Knight's defensive kit pushes towards magical mitigation, regardless of how useful or useless it is. Why is it that Dark Knight is the only tank that has a personal cool down that still blocks only one damage type? Then their aoe reduction is also magical as well? Why not instead follow up with more shielding, like TBN and push DRK more towards a Tank that instead puts up shields for incoming damage? -- This is what makes it the "anti-magic" tank, it's current kit pushes towards it and they stripped away the other options you mentioned that it had during previous expansions.

For instance, GNB now has a parry and damage reduction ability (Camouflage), why doesn't Drk have this in the form of Dark Dance? Why not have dark have an ability where they can parry both magic and physical attacks, get rid of dark mind, put Dark Dance back, see about re-working the cool down and give it a cool animation when that particular parry(s) happens? Because SE deemed it would be better that they have abilities that focused on lowering magical damage only - that's why.

The abilities can be exactly the same, GNB probably needs a slight boost too or they need to re-work them as it only blocks one type of damage.

Spoken like a true savage raider who has no respect for the rest of the games content. So nothing else matters till you get to the "real" game? Which Savage is? We shouldn't worry what happens to anyone in the first 79 levels or the MSQ? Balance doesn't matter at all? Thank god you and your ignorance aren't on the dev team that's all I can say. Given you seem to have forgotten in terms of utility DRK had...

* Dark Passenger to blind mobs for mitigation (oh my god though you had to press an extra button for DA!)

* Carve and spit where you had the =choice= for MP regen or extra damage (OMG DA SPAM!)

* Blood Price where DRK could more easily sustain MP during mass pulls to keep TBN and AD up

* Blood weapon with extra regen AND attack speed to bring more dps to the table if that floated your boat, making DRK excellent OT's since it was a non tank stance buff.

* Delirium providing extra uptime to both of the above instead of just being a warrior wannabe burst window

* Quietus providing a meaningful use in terms of sustain with mp regen per hit, unlike it's near uselessness now, and being rapidly outclassed by stalwart soul combo.

* Abyssal Drain providing mass HP regen on mass pulls, and the "utility" powers to make sure you could keep it going. Without being locked on a cooldown that makes it even more useless

* TBN giving blood instead of this new broken DA where you either lose dps, or gain one extra free hit, and just replacing one brand of DA spam with another for a DPS boost that is barely even noticeable. Unlike the old version where you had a =choice= with 50 blood to deal extra dps or gain extra mp regen. And the MP regen skills that gave a wider skill window unlike the current 123 BS spam we have now.

But DRK didn't have any utility... Ah but I forgot none of the above matters to you, because it's just progression play, and only scrubs do that, we don't need to worry about anything but savage right? *eyeroll*

1. Spoken like a normally sane person. Savage content is the peak of performance. That means that anything up to it is going to be vastly easier
2. All of those abilities you just mentioned aren't utility save for The Blackest Night, which doubles as a personal cool down as well pending on the situation. Utility are abilities that assist other players.

Examples:
Monks Brotherhood
Dragoons battle latency and Dragon Sight
Dark Knights Dark missionary.
Paladin's Passage of arms.
Paladin's Aoe Shield that is annoying to proct.
Ect.

3. You should ask for quality of life changes, as there are issues there. Some jobs may be annoying at lower levels due to the order we get our abilities, but there isn't any issue with clearing any of the content, unless the player or other people in the player's group are having issues grasping mechanics or how a particular job works.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I'm probably the only one who was getting physically sick from playing Dark Knight, like even practicing on a striking dummy with Dark knight was making me physically sick. Doesn't help the fact that Dark Knight feels slow as hell and not fun to play in general, which was probably making feel even more physically sick. I did use the "leave a suggestion" function in the in-game support desk to let them know about but I'm not holding my breathe on them addressing the issue...