fate of emperor varis at the end

[Absimiliard]

The Doman and Ala Mhigan territories were liberated; ergo, the Eorzeans were well within their rights to defend them from Imperial aggression started under false pretenses. The conflicts that led to their liberation were over for some time before the next battle, during which Ala Mhigo hammered out a new system of government and Doma received an Imperial ambassador. The Alliance pushing into Imperial territory after the Ghimlyt Dark in the original timeline is not an effort at conquest, but an effort to stop Varis from causing rejoinings on purpose (this would cause the complete annihilation of multiple other realities with the deaths of countless people on the Source besides). The Empire is fully within rights to defend its territories, but it's not as if the Alliance can just sit around twiddling their thumbs knowing the ruler of the Empire is deliberately planning to commit genocide multiple times over (and they learned this in a parley with him, so it's doubtful further discussion would do any good). Knowing this, what would be the correct course of action?

Where is this idea that people are saying Eorzea shouldn't fight back coming from? No one has said that. What we've been saying is that both sides are well within their rights to protect themselves through whatever means they deem necessary. Those lands now liberated from the Empire are no longer part of the Empire and therefore no longer subject to its rules and regulations. Should it manage to retake them despite Eorzean opposition, those lands would again fall under imperial rule. That's all there is to it. Liberating conquered territories is not a wrong course of action. Defending the territories you've conquered is not a wrong course of action. As for Varis? Getting him out of power was probably something they needed to look into doing. Y'know, til his son did it for them. Now the Empire will fall into civil war, and I have no doubt the Alliance will decide to destroy them while they're vulnerable. Not attacking an enemy while they are vulnerable would be a very poor strategy indeed.

The GNB NPC is another example of the reviled "apologist defector," though. Supporters of the Empire don't like such characters. (The GNB quest also reveals that some Imperials use shock collars to enforce obedience from prisoners. Or just for funsies.)

Some imperial citizens are pretty awful people. That's not really up for debate. The shock collar thing, while messed up, is probably only about as bad as what happens to prisoners in Ul'dah that don't or can't fight for a chance at freedom. I don't think anybody is saying the Empire is in the right, at any rate. We would simply like for writers to call more attention to some of the deplorable things Eorzeans do. As for the defector? No amount of effort on his part should ever rightfully earn him forgiveness for all those lives lost, however accidentally it might have been.

Weapons like Black Rose are not weapons of war. They are weapons of terror, intended to intimidate others into submission instead of actually being used to prove military superiority or, failing that, just kill the opposition without giving them a chance to fight back. That doesn't prove anything but that you're capable of killing lots of people with chemical weapons, and dumping it on Eorzea (or any other region for that matter) is literally genocide. That is not warfare or securing borders, it is straight-up genocide.

Consider the following:
You are the leader of a technologically advanced Empire, the capital of which is inhabited primarily by a race of people that are severely biologically handicapped compared to virtually every other sapient organism on the planet. You've long used your technology to compensate for that weakness, but the tide is turning; your technology is no longer sufficient to maintain your position of dominance against a continually growing list of nations allied against you. Whatever you've done to provoke their ire, you still have to look out for your own above all else, yes?

Now, I posed the above hypothetical to ask this question: If the above were true and you'd suddenly lost your advantage; if you were being pushed back time and time again by an enemy you were slowly becoming less and less able to handle, would you simply let your empire eventually fall? Would you let your people go back to the days of being oppressed because of their disability, or would you use every means available to you to prevent that from happening? Black Rose is a weapon of terror, yes - its destructive power is horrifying, but it is a weapon all the same. Who wants to go to war, especially one they're starting to think they might not win, when they can simply destroy their opposition without risking anything?

I'm not saying the Eorzeans are looking to oppress here, but the Garleans probably think they are. We are after all talking about a race that suffered immeasurably for a very long time because of their inherent inability to manipulate aether. Consequently, we aren't claiming the war started as a result of Garlean desperation, either. Their initial use of Black Rose is not being defended at all. What we're arguing is that it would be perfectly understandable if they began to use it in larger quantities after the war begins to go incredibly poorly for them.

We do not know how far the Alliance made it into Ilsabard before the Empire used Black Rose in the original timeline. It was not stated they made it to the Garlean heartland or the capital. I would argue that it was used as soon as the Empire realized it was not going to win otherwise, but that is unknown.

That seems like a reasonable assumption. That being said, does an otherwise unwinnable fight not sound like a pretty desperate situation to you? Realizing you're in a war you can't win would lead any nation to a state of desperation. Regardless of this fact, I would contend that resorting to the use of Black Rose in an attempt to turn a no-win scenario in your favor is actually a very reasonable thing to do, as otherwise your empire and your people are pretty well screwed. This is especially true when your race has been conditioned to view all other sapient races as a threat to their survival.

Dropping meteors is not something every thaumaturge can do, and in fact some people can't even practice the arts at all.

Not every thaumaturge, but we have been shown a few NPC spellcasters of varying types that are indeed capable of that level of destruction.

[YianKutku]

Gaius: As far as I can see the view on him is quite good on this forum. I would see him as one of the few that managed to change from a bad guy to someone that at least helps us in some way. He saw his mistakes and is now trying everything in his power to stop the Ascians. He has done some bad stuff and is fine with conquering (wondering if he still is after finding out all about the Ascians) but at the same time has shown to be honorable and has shown to have some morals too. He was against project meteor, is destroying black rose because its a horrible weapon and is also actively fighting against Asicans. He is a good written character with nuance.

Minor note: Gaius didn't object to Black Rose on moral grounds, ie he didn't think Black Rose was somehow "too terrible" to use. He objected to Black Rose on "pragmatic" grounds, in that he thinks Black Rose is too deadly and indiscriminate. Presumably if there was a formulation of Black Rose that had a definite non-100% casualty rate, he would be far less opposed to it.

The same applies for Meteor: his objections to it were entirely because it killed everyone, or at least had a very high probability of killing everyone.

Consider the following:
You are the leader of a technologically advanced Empire, the capital of which is inhabited primarily by a race of people that are severely biologically handicapped compared to virtually every other sapient organism on the planet. You've long used your technology to compensate for that weakness, but the tide is turning; your technology is no longer sufficient to maintain your position of dominance against a continually growing list of nations allied against you. Whatever you've done to provoke their ire, you still have to look out for your own above all else, yes?

Firstly, "long used your technology to compensate for that weakness" in the case of Garlemald means "for about 65 years". Previously, Garlemald used subterfuge and diplomacy (and coin to hire mercenaries) to survive, and expand their territories.

Secondly, based on Emet-Selch's words, as Solus he advocated for treating the conquered well, in order to assimilate them into the Empire. (Whether he truly believed that is uncertain for now, especially given that he doesn't even see anyone else as truly "alive", and we also know that his tenure as Emperor of Garlemald was primarily intended to sow chaos in the world.) The Garlean Empire has clearly failed at doing this, hence provoking the ire of not only the subjugated nations under their rule, but also other nations who are presented with the evidence of its misdeeds.

So in this hypothetical question of what I would do as leader of this Garlean Empire, the answer is fairly obvious: use the tools available to Garlemald for six hundred years prior to the development of this "superior technology", namely diplomacy and subterfuge. Apologize for brutalities done in the Empire's name. Negotiate concessions and compromises. Promote propaganda presenting life under Garlemald as better than life before, and back it up with evidence. And most certainly keep maniacs like Zenos away from any position of governing authority.

The execution (ie the "how") is deeply complex and ever-changing, but the basic concept (ie the "what") is entirely obvious from Solus's own stated policies. That this was not done proves that Garlemald simply has no intention of being a proper ruler to its people, and is instead lashing out like a spoiled child. Which was the criticism pointed at Yotsuyu for her actions against Domans.

[Absimiliard]

Stuff

Allow me to reiterate a key component of context:
Diplomacy is no longer an option. The advancing force has progressed sufficiently as to demonstrate that it likely has no intention of stopping. The people - these oft times brilliant but none the less biologically handicapped individuals - are in abject fear of again suffering the indignities and torments of their forbears.

The objective behind the thought exercise is to establish a level of understanding as to the whys of what what could happen, not what necessarily will. If backed into a corner with no way to win and no way of talking their way out, what ruler wouldn't resort to whatever means available to try and change that dismal state of affairs? Attempting to utterly decimate your enemies through admittedly horrible means is probably better than allowing your people to suffer.

[YianKutku]

Allow me to reiterate a key component of context:
Diplomacy is no longer an option. The advancing force has progressed sufficiently as to demonstrate that it likely has no intention of stopping. The people - these oft times brilliant but none the less biologically handicapped individuals - are in abject fear of again suffering the indignities and torments of their forbears.

The objective behind the thought exercise is to establish a level of understanding as to the whys of what what could happen, not what necessarily will. If backed into a corner with no way to win and no way of talking their way out, what ruler wouldn't resort to whatever means available to try and change that dismal state of affairs? Attempting to utterly decimate your enemies through admittedly horrible means is probably better than allowing your people to suffer.

I mean, "no way to win and no way of talking their way out" sounds like it's assuming conditions that may not actually be true. "No way to win" might be correct, but "no way of talking their way out" was clearly incorrect, since the Eorzean Alliance was willing to parley with Varis. Varis then railroaded the first half of the parley (which I blame on poor writing, but that's a topic that's already been covered extensively), then gave an ultimatum in the second half with no room for compromise. That's not "no way of talking their way out", that's "no inclination to talk at all".

The Garlean Empire was faced with a disaster of their own making, and then decided that they would rather unleash another disaster than submit. It is possible they believed the Eorzean Alliance would be as brutal to them as they were to the Garlean-conquered territories, but that's still classified under "a disaster of their own making" in that this belief had to come from somewhere, and Imperial Propaganda is the most likely answer. (And yet, Imperial Japan surrendered.)

[Cilia]

Some imperial citizens are pretty awful people. That's not really up for debate. The shock collar thing, while messed up, is probably only about as bad as what happens to prisoners in Ul'dah that don't or can't fight for a chance at freedom. I don't think anybody is saying the Empire is in the right, at any rate. We would simply like for writers to call more attention to some of the deplorable things Eorzeans do.

What the Ul'dahn prisoners that don't or can't fight for their freedom is explored in Pipin's Tales from the Storm backstory, "When the Wager Pays Off." They maintain equipment for, patch up, and assist those who do fight.

The deplorable things done by the Eorzeans largely lie in the past. Yes, they did horrible things and those who learn of them consider them as such, but that doesn't excuse (much less justify) what the Empire is doing now. The past cannot be changed - the future can, and a future with less death and suffering is the ideal one.

Consider the following:
You are the leader of a technologically advanced Empire, the capital of which is inhabited primarily by a race of people that are severely biologically handicapped compared to virtually every other sapient organism on the planet. You've long used your technology to compensate for that weakness, but the tide is turning; your technology is no longer sufficient to maintain your position of dominance against a continually growing list of nations allied against you. Whatever you've done to provoke their ire, you still have to look out for your own above all else, yes?

Now, I posed the above hypothetical to ask this question: If the above were true and you'd suddenly lost your advantage; if you were being pushed back time and time again by an enemy you were slowly becoming less and less able to handle, would you simply let your empire eventually fall? Would you let your people go back to the days of being oppressed because of their disability, or would you use every means available to you to prevent that from happening? Black Rose is a weapon of terror, yes - its destructive power is horrifying, but it is a weapon all the same. Who wants to go to war, especially one they're starting to think they might not win, when they can simply destroy their opposition without risking anything?

The answer to this is simple: have the humility to accept when you have lost. Be humble. Engage in diplomacy. Make amends. That need not involve relinquishing the magitek used to even the scales or giving up territory, though it may. Acknowledge that you have to work with other people of the world - some of who you may not like - to make it a better place for everyone (your people included), and that you cannot have it your own way all the time anymore.

Throwing chemical weapons to maintain supremacy is essentially a ragequit; "We picked a fight we can't win through conventional means, so we'll just gas them." It's also bad for the Garlean people in the long run by killing land and furthering the negative perception of the Empire among those who hear of it.

I'm not saying the Eorzeans are looking to oppress here, but the Garleans probably think they are. We are after all talking about a race that suffered immeasurably for a very long time because of their inherent inability to manipulate aether. Consequently, we aren't claiming the war started as a result of Garlean desperation, either. Their initial use of Black Rose is not being defended at all. What we're arguing is that it would be perfectly understandable if they began to use it in larger quantities after the war begins to go incredibly poorly for them.

That seems like a reasonable assumption. That being said, does an otherwise unwinnable fight not sound like a pretty desperate situation to you? Realizing you're in a war you can't win would lead any nation to a state of desperation. Regardless of this fact, I would contend that resorting to the use of Black Rose in an attempt to turn a no-win scenario in your favor is actually a very reasonable thing to do, as otherwise your empire and your people are pretty well screwed. This is especially true when your race has been conditioned to view all other sapient races as a threat to their survival.

As far as we know the initial use of Black Rose was when the war began to go poorly for the Empire; the only previous use of the weapon was against the insurgent camp Alphinaud and Gaius stumble across in 4.4. (From the looks of it death by Black Rose is also pretty painful.)

It is known that the Empire spreads propaganda painting the other races of the world as brutal savages, and that this information is not accurate. A sidequest chain in the Peaks involved Baut (an oft-brought up figure during Stormblood discussions to point at an instance of Imperial decency), a centurion / town magistrate of Ala Ghiri. The people of the town liked him, but refused to turn him over to the Alliance when they came rolling through (despite the town peacefully surrendering) because Imperial propaganda stated they killed any and all PoWs. This is untrue; prisoners are shown to be treated humanely (in Baut's case, while he was eventually taken into custody he was quickly let out on parole for good conduct and cooperating very well with the Alliance). There's also one of Kan-E-Senna's personal guards being a former Legionnaire who defected after Cartenau, as well as the Eorzean conjurers / White Mages healing friend and foe alike in the wake of the Calamity. Hien would also logically need PoWs for the prisoner exchange offered by Asahi (under false pretense, but regardless).

Do the Garleans fear how they will be treated if they lose their supremacy? Most likely, due to propaganda.
Should the Garleans fear how they will be treated if they lose their supremacy? Arguably not, or if so it's entirely a consequence of the brutality with which they've interacted with the rest of the world since their rise to power. (Those who recognize this tend to defect or join the Populares.)

Using Black Rose in the first place is, again, not much more than a ragequit. You don't get to pick a fight you end up being unable to win, gas your enemies, and then declare victory. Chemical agents are not weapons of war, they are weapons of terror, and their use does not constitute proper warfare. Don't start none, won't be none.

Not every thaumaturge, but we have been shown a few NPC spellcasters of varying types that are indeed capable of that level of destruction.

The only friendly NPC I recall capable of calling down meteors was Sadu, and her technique has a pretty big flaw. (Too much windup. And she's not entirely friendly, more like an amiable Zenos who is on our side if you ask me...) Other than that it's limited to Black Mages, and having not played the BLM quests, as far as I know the only one capable of using that particular technique is the PC (who can only use it as a Lv3 Limit Break to boot).

There are plenty of destructive magicks in the game, but few NPCs actually have ready access to them. (Or: the Empire doesn't need Agrius-class airships because half a dozen thaumaturges can make enough fireballs to break open a big gate.) What we (the PCs) do on a daily basis is far beyond average means.

[Edax]

Now, I posed the above hypothetical to ask this question: If the above were true and you'd suddenly lost your advantage; if you were being pushed back time and time again by an enemy you were slowly becoming less and less able to handle, would you simply let your empire eventually fall? Would you let your people go back to the days of being oppressed because of their disability, or would you use every means available to you to prevent that from happening? Black Rose is a weapon of terror, yes - its destructive power is horrifying, but it is a weapon all the same. Who wants to go to war, especially one they're starting to think they might not win, when they can simply destroy their opposition without risking anything?

Would I let my Empire fall? No. But neither would I use Black Rose. I know my history, the first time the Allies used lethal gas weapons against Germany in WWI was after they capture stockpiles of mustard shells from the Germans and returned the favor. To use Black Rose is to have Black Rose used upon your Empire. It's just a matter of fact that powerful weapons end up captured by the enemy over time and reverse engineered or simply commandeered. Black Rose is an escalation from a war of survival to a war of extermination, to use is it is to doom the Empire.

I'm not saying the Eorzeans are looking to oppress here, but the Garleans probably think they are. We are after all talking about a race that suffered immeasurably for a very long time because of their inherent inability to manipulate aether. Consequently, we aren't claiming the war started as a result of Garlean desperation, either. Their initial use of Black Rose is not being defended at all. What we're arguing is that it would be perfectly understandable if they began to use it in larger quantities after the war begins to go incredibly poorly for them.

The Empire invades and conquers far distant countries and the Garleans think they are the ones being oppressed? That's too stupid for words. Gas weapons are not weapons of last resort, they escalate the conflict which is the last thing you want to happen when the war is going badly for you. If the war is going badly, you want to deescalate the conflict so you can get an armistice to save the country before it's invaded, not strengthen the cause of the enemy.

[Absimiliard]

The Empire invades and conquers far distant countries and the Garleans think they are the ones being oppressed? That's too stupid for words. Gas weapons are not weapons of last resort, they escalate the conflict which is the last thing you want to happen when the war is going badly for you. If the war is going badly, you want to deescalate the conflict so you can get an armistice to save the country before it's invaded, not strengthen the cause of the enemy.

I typically dislike this option when it comes to debate, but we may simply have to agree to disagree on the subject of Black Rose and the validity or invalidity - from the Garlean perspective specifically, I would note - of choosing to deploy the weapon. I personally do not believe Eorzeans have truly grown beyond the atrocities committed in their past. Reaching an accord with them would, in my opinion, be begging for a knife in the back somewhere down the line. Given their track record, they're honestly just as bad as the Empire in a lot of ways. Neither side could ever really trust the other. There would most likely be a dangerous amount of friction on both sides almost from onset. For these reason as well as others outlined further below, I suspect the a not insignificant portion of the Garlean population could indeed be influenced to view the use of Black Rose as a viable and warranted military action.

As for the Garleans thinking they're being oppressed? No one said they currently feel that way. A major part of Garlean history is that they were abused horribly by the other sapient races prior to their discovery of ceruleum and subsequent invention of magitech. So horribly, in fact, that they lost nearly all of their lands and found themselves driven into a virtually uninhabitable region. If I'm not mistaken it was implied somewhere that a significant portion of their population was lost as a result. Considering this, it could easily be said that much of their current mindset (or at least that of the dominant faction) was likely shaped by those experiences - and in all probability having Emet-Selch on hand at the Empire's inception to do more than a little gaslighting. It's not hard to behave irrationally when so much of your racial history - and comparatively recent history at that - consists of suffering loss after loss on account of an inborn disability putting you at significant disadvantage. The Garlean Empire is not that old, after all. It is very likely that some of the people living in it today remember the "good old days" of barely managing to eke out a living in the harsh landscape their forbears were driven to.

Anywho, an unhealthy combination of imperial propaganda, the aforementioned gaslighting, and their actual history being one rife with shocking levels of abuse and suffering make it very easy to picture them being lead to believe the "savages" from outside Garlemald would seek to oppress, demean, and potentially even destroy them all over again. Whether or not the Alliance would actually do this is secondary to how easily the Garlean populace could be given the impression that this very thing would happen in the event of any outcome where the Empire doesn't come out on top. Desperate people will do some pretty insane things.

[Alleo]

I typically dislike this option when it comes to debate, but we may simply have to agree to disagree on the subject of Black Rose and the validity or invalidity - from the Garlean perspective specifically, I would note - of choosing to deploy the weapon. I personally do not believe Eorzeans have truly grown beyond the atrocities committed in their past. Reaching an accord with them would, in my opinion, be begging for a knife in the back somewhere down the line. Given their track record, they're honestly just as bad as the Empire in a lot of ways.

Can you give examples please? Its always easy to point out that one side is exactly the same as the other but its hard to discuss things without seeing what someone sees as horrible acts.

I give my examples. (And again we are only talking about recent events not stuff that happened hundred years ago)

Garlemald:

- Wanted to drop a meteor on Eorzea which then released Bahamut which would have created another huge calamity if the scions did not prevent it at least a bit. Still destroyed a lot of land, killed people on both sides and created the ground for a lot of conflict with the beast tribes in Eorzea.
- Force people of conquered cities into the war by keeping their loved ones as hostages and as soon as something bad happens they kill them, including the children. (And sometimes even kill them when nothing bad happens..)
- Threats quite some of the conquered states quite badly and look away at violence. Even put people like Zenos in charge. Takes away their culture and their ways to earn Gil, leaving them starving and without a great future. (Something Rome for example has never done because they knew that this would just cause rebellions..)
- Use people as leaders that are known to be hateful and violent towards the people they should rule.
- Creates and uses a chemical weapon, first on human test subjects then later on their own people who oppose the leader politically. Would have created the 8th. calamity with said weapon, destroying the source with it, killing the lands and their own people too. It would have created a war that was still going on 200 years in the future. (So they would have created two calamities..)
- Leader works together with the Asicans and wants the calamities to happen so that they will get stronger to maybe defeat the Ascians later..completely ignoring that most would probably be death anyways..
- Leader restricts freedom of speech and punishs anyone that goes against him, even if its just for art.
- Soldiers are killed by the likes of Zenos for nothing, and nobody does anything
- Planned genocide of the whole beast tribes and at the start of the echo users too.
- Using echo users and some other humans for experiments to create super soldiers, maybe even doing said experiments on a garlean child.

There are probably more but that does not make them look good.

Eorzean alliance

- Limsa: Breaks contract with the kobolds which forces them into conflict. Still has to deal with its past of being pirates.

- Gridania: Very negative to outsiders that go into their country, out of fear of angering the elementals. Which in turn means that people might die because they get no help.

- Uldah: The rich control the city and might do everything to keep control. Leader still tries everything to help others but cant do much. Also dont help the refugees much.

-Ala Mhigo: Was under Garlean rule for over 20 years and afterwards is now rebuilding their city back. On a good way and one cant say much about it because they were under a different rule before that.

-Ishgard: Had built itself on a lie and was at constant war thanks to that. Did not help at the battle a few years ago because of their own problems and did not want strangers in their city. Also they were ready to kill anyone that opposes them and also killed quite a bit of Au Ra because they believed them to be related with dragons. Government changed and now these problems are gone.

Now these are the points I can think of. Nothing comes close to what Garlemald has done the recent years and a lot of the problem even just arised because of Bahamut..without that the Sahagin for example would not have lost their breeding grounds and maybe Limsa would not have broken their contract. Still the problems they are having will probably be found in a lot of governments even in real life. And we cant forget that at least the elementals are real too.

But at the same time next to all of this, the leaders of the Alliance have shown to be good people. Even after that horrible battle years ago Kan-E-Senna went out of her way to even heal Garlean soldiers and she took one in as her personal guard.

Nanamo has now created a way for Ala Mhigo to earn some money by getting Lolorito to finance the saltery. Which will help the people in these countries quite a bit.

The Alliance also found some of Black Rose but instead of using it to create their own weapons they were disgusted by that and destroyed every single bit of it. They are also fighting the fight with their own manpower.

After the battles to get Ala Mhigo back they also did not kill the soldiers that surrendered, heck the WoL for example even healed some. They could have easily let the mob kill Fordola too but Raubahn wanted a fair trial and there they even gave her the chance to life by helping out the alliance with the primal problems.

People on the army are as far as we know not forced and you are free to say whats on your mind towards the leaders. Ysthola was calling the admiral out of it and she does not need to fear punishment. Do the same in Garlemald with at least a bit of power behind you and you will find yourself killed and your family probably too.

So I am looking forward to see some of the atrocities that they are seemingly able to do. Because none of the leaders right now seems to be that way. They might not be perfect (nobody said they are) but their problems and bad things they are doing are nothing when you compare them to Garlemald.

About Garlemalds past:

Can we please stop with saying that they suffered thus they have the right to use this against other countries that had nothing to do with that? First this happened a long time ago. Garlemald existed a long time before Emet Selch took over and that was already when they have combined several tribes into one. Nobody from that time is alive anymore and many generations have passed. This cant be used as an argument anymore, simply because they already got their land back. Anything else is just them feeling like they should rule.

[Scintilla]

Uldah: The rich control the city and might do everything to keep control. Leader still tries everything to help others but cant do much. Also dont help the refugees much.
...
So I am looking forward to see some of the atrocities that they are seemingly able to do.

To be completely fair though, that description of the Eorzean Alliance members does downplay some of the more unpleasant aspects, Ul'dah in particular. Whilst not incorrect, your description of the (admittedly many) flaws of Garlemald are far more detailed.

- Slavery; Citizens of Ul'dah, including children, could be sold to repay debts. With able men kept imprisoned and forced into brutal fights before an audience in the Coliseum for their freedom. Meanwhile, less able prisoners were forced into a daily routine of back-breaking chores followed by training in which even minor mistakes were punished with beatings.
- Syndicate; Whilst Nanamo may be the 'face' of Ul'dah leadership with her role as the Sultan, much of the power lies with the rest of the Syndicate: the richest in society and the seats of which can be bought. Needless to say, being able to buy a position of power is far from ideal and is something even Garlemald (as far as we know) didn't go as far as to do. Not only would such an arrangement increase the already considerable rift between the wealthy and poor, but lead to an easier manipulation of the vulnerable.

It's also important to consider that we're unlikely to have heard about the underlying issues or past wrongdoings of the alliance members, as they're our allies. Similar to how regular Garlean citizens are unlikely to know the list of questionable actions of Garlemald, instead hearing only a biased account of how bad the Alliance is.

People on the army are as far as we know not forced and you are free to say whats on your mind towards the leaders. Ysthola was calling the admiral out of it and she does not need to fear punishment. Do the same in Garlemald with at least a bit of power behind you and you will find yourself killed and your family probably too.

After a quick check, the wikia states that Limsa's army is formed partially from 'conscripted pirates'. Conscription being a compulsory enlistment into such a service. Though I can't say exactly where that information was sourced from. The rest I completely agree with though.

[Alleo]

- Slavery; Citizens of Ul'dah, including children, could be sold to repay debts. With able men kept imprisoned and forced into brutal fights before an audience in the Coliseum for their freedom. Meanwhile, less able prisoners were forced into a daily routine of back-breaking chores followed by training in which even minor mistakes were punished with beatings.
- Syndicate; Whilst Nanamo may be the 'face' of Ul'dah leadership with her role as the Sultan, much of the power lies with the rest of the Syndicate: the richest in society and the seats of which can be bought. Needless to say, being able to buy a position of power is far from ideal and is something even Garlemald (as far as we know) didn't go as far as to do. Not only would such an arrangement increase the already considerable rift between the wealthy and poor, but lead to an easier manipulation of the vulnerable.

Of course there might be more aspects (and I was ready to read what he had to say about the real bad stuff that they did in recent years that come close to Garlemald) but I just wrote of those that came to my mind that were on the forefront of the story. Which in case of Limsa is their old pirate lifes, in Uldah its mostly the problem with the rich people doing their selfish things and the situation of the refugees and Gridania with its stance of not helping or even shunning outsiders out of fear. That there are more problems that I can see, but we also have to remember that these problems probably happen in a lot of states, maybe even in Garlemald so I wanted to concentrate on those more specific to a state.

And honestly with all the help we are doing we should have found out about the bad stuff the states are doing already. We are putting our noses in a lot of different businesses. We also do know the leaders quite well and have seen some of their reactions. So I have just a hard time seeing them doing some atrocies especially after seeing how they were dealing with Fordola.

About the conscripted pirates: I have not heard about this ingame but the game is long and the translations can be different between languages. So if they do have conscripted pirates too then that might be a minus point for Limsa. Of course the question still is: Are they just criminals that get a chance of getting free with that or are they forced like Garlean soldiers with the death of their loved ones as "motivation"?

So of course the city states have their problems too but they are seemingly working on them.