fate of emperor varis at the end

[Absimiliard]

Are we truly trying to make the use of a chemical weapon like the black rose seen as something fine?

No one is saying that. What we are saying is that some of the methods employed by Eorzea are pretty horrible. Continually lambasting the Empire for doing awful things while at the same time ignoring the fact that Eorzea has committed more than a few atrocities of their own is not a type of writing everyone is going to enjoy.

Can people not just accept that Garlemald does some very messed up stuff? When the story again and again hits you over the head with people (even Garleans themselves) saying how horrible it is? I am quite sure that the very same people defending this would surely blame Eorzea (rightfully!) if they would use such methods. Its fine if you love Garlemald but maybe its time to accept that stuff they are doing is not fine. Trying to spin this as something positive or spinning it as if they had to use it even though it was again the empire that striked back is victim blaming at its finest. Especially when you kinda forget that these countries did not belong to Garlemald, did not want to belong to Garlemald but seemingly that was fine? But when these people with the help of other countries get their homes back and then defend it they are in the wrong? What?

Try to look at this through the lenses of politics and cold logic without any emotion thrown into the mix. Legally speaking, a country that is conquered by another country is in fact recognized as part of that country. Even Great Britain acquired the vast majority of its lands through conquest. To invade any of those lands is to invade Great Britain, and they will retaliate as they deem appropriate. Garlemald is no different in this regard. Those lands were won by shedding of Garlean blood, sweat, and tears. They've got every right - nay, an obligation - to protect what is theirs. I don't believe I've seen anyone deny that the Empire has done some fairly terrible things. The fact that the people in the conquered territories got assistance in taking their land back is also fine. What isn't fine is the assumption that Garlemald shouldn't retaliate when it is being attacked. The Empire, as a nation, should by all rights do anything within its power to protect itself. If manpower and technology are no longer enough, then yes, it is perfectly reasonable for them to resort to using something as terrible as Black Rose. It isn't as if the Eorzeans haven't been burning, freezing, electrocuting, poisoning, rotting, and exploding Garlean troops all along.

Remember that if they were not stopped and we did not change the future they would have used Black rose and would have thrown the world into the next calamity (a goal that varis too had, even after knowning about the ascians) which would have still been going on after 200 years and which would have left the world death thanks to it turning the soil bad. A meteor cast by a mage can never ever be that devasting.

The Garleans - including Varis - did not possess this information. They saw it only as a weapon they could employ, and they only decided to employ it when backed into a corner with no way out. The issue is who they used it on. Killing the non-combatants was a bit much, though such a thing is inevitable in war. One cannnot hold the Garleans responsible for something that hasn't even happened yet. As for a meteor cast by a mage? I encourage you to look at the sheer size of some of the meteors that have been dropped over the course of FFXIV. A space rock of that size would in fact be quite the catastrophe. Then there was the War of Magi. There are areas of the Source that cannot support life to this day because of that event - not only because of the catastrophic damage done by magic itself, but also due to the sheer amount of aether consumed by all that spellwork.

[Alleo]

The Garleans - including Varis - did not possess this information. They saw it only as a weapon they could employ, and they only decided to employ it when backed into a corner with no way out. The issue is who they used it on. Killing the non-combatants was a bit much, though such a thing is inevitable in war. One cannnot hold the Garleans responsible for something that hasn't even happened yet. As for a meteor cast by a mage? I encourage you to look at the sheer size of some of the meteors that have been dropped over the course of FFXIV. A space rock of that size would in fact be quite the catastrophe. Then there was the War of Magi. There are areas of the Source that cannot support life to this day because of that event - not only because of the catastrophic damage done by magic itself, but also due to the sheer amount of aether consumed by all that spellwork.

I am not ignoring what Eorzea did but I am looking at the stuff that happens now or in recent history instead of the past. If Garlemald had done all of this hundred years ago then I would not use that as an argument but they did not. And nothing that Eorzea ever did in recent years comes near to the stuff that Garlemald did and still does. And the story does point out some of the bad things in Eorzea but it goes even more out of its way to show what Garlemald is doing is wrong. Heck even the new Gunbreaker job quests have an character that right away talks about his family being killed even though he worked (under force) for Garlemald thus he went away from them. He is outright comparing things between the states. Not everything is right with Eorzea but its nothing in comparsion to Garlemald and the writers do their best to show this ingame too.

Why should I look at this without any emotions? Everyone is thriven by them, even someone like Varis. Heck even the Ascians are.

If we use that as an argument (being right to conquer and thus owning the country) than many years ago when Garlemald lost to another tribe they were completely in the wrong to then unite the other tribes under them and reclaim their land..but seemingly that was fine? I mean if the amount of time that went by was huge and there was nobody there still living from the old time you may be right that its best to just let them be (as long as the people of the country see it that way too). But for Doma and Ala Mhigo it was still recent and a lot of people before the conquering were still alive. It was also not like Eorzea marched into this and threw Garlemald out just because..no they were forced to fight at Balsear Wall because of Ilbert and even then only reclaimed Ala Mhigo because they knew a lot of people wanted that. Heck even Hien the prince and later king of doma only went against them because the people wished to be free once more and otherwise would have given up his life.

And just like it was fine for Garlemald to take back their country it was completely fine for Ala Mhigo and Doma to stand up to take back their country. It would turn them into aggressors if they then (like Garlemald did) decide to conquer other cities that were not once part of theirs. But that is not what is happening. They are defending their cities that are now theirs again.

Varis might have not understood how bad the black rose would be (I am not even sure if the Ascians knew how bad it would be) but he 100% knew about the calamity plans the ascians had and was on their site on this. He was more than ready to kill a huge amount of people (and in that case also lots of garlean soldiers that were at the battle field..but who cares about them right..they were mostly soldiers from conquered cities anyway and not Garleans) and be fine with the destructions of shards which also kills billions of peope to achieve his goal.

There are things like war crimes and after the war is over people are punished for them. Chemical weapons are part of that and killing civilians is 100% not fine or inevitable in war. They are only hit when one side decides to employ weapons directly against them instead of fighting on the battle fields.

Garlemald was also not backed into a corner..we know from the bad future that Eorzea was simply winning the battle on their ground and pushing back. There was no talk about them standing on the doorsteps of Garlemald..heck Elidibus already talked about black rose when they were at a stalemate..so no there is no good reason for them to use them, even in the bad future. They could have easily just make another try at peace and this time just said: Okay fine you get your countries but dont you dare attack us and the alliance would be fine with that. They never wanted a full blown war againt Garlemald.

Which meteor was cast by a normal person in recent history in FF14 that is that bad? The only meteor drop was from Bahamut..and the war of magi too was done by the Ascians. Right now there are probably not many people who would be able to do such a thing.

This point keeps coming up - what he is referring to in all likelihood is the people who lived on the Source before the Sundering, like the Amaurotines. This is not some obscure racial slant but a reference to the people who existed before the split, with his understanding formed by the knowledge imparted to him by the Ascians.


Nope, it just points to a different interpretation of the facts and wanting different things out of the game. This is very much a very subjective area of discussion.



It may be "speculation" but it is a very general formula and I am sorry but I don't see how Varis, intent on keeping the Empire together for the greater purpose of eventually overcoming the Ascians is closer to Zenos, whose only interest is causing destruction to fuel nothing else but his blood sport and thus quell his boredom. If they are putting Emet-Selch in the corner of the "sympathetic antagonist" given his aims, I am fairly confident Varis would fall into the same area.

Yes we know now that a race like that existed but we also know now that they intented to sacrifice everyone on the source to only get back those sacrificed people. So Varis talk about the perfect race (under the banner of Garlemald probably) would not exist because most of his people would probably be death anyway thanks to the calamities but those that survive would be sacrificed. So he is working for someone and creating death and destruction for some half truths he was probably told by Elidibus. For someone that wants rule under the hands of humanity its interesting how he threat humanity and how he still listens to Elidibus.

Yes parts of a discussion will always be subjective but there are also facts. Stuff that is shown ingame. One could of course interpret these facts differently but there is a point were it gets too much and the interpretations turn out to be wrong. So even in a subjective discussion one side can simply be wrong. (And I am not saying that you are, just pointing out that this can be the case)

Yet Emet was still a villian at the end, maybe one with more reasons but to us he was one. Yet some claim that Varis is not even a villian and this is imo false. You can find him sympathetic (I dont) but that does not change what he has done. Heck SE even went out of their way to give him the evil smile and evil aura. Why do that if they want to make him into a grey character or even turn to our side? Why not outright do scenes that are showing him in a good light? They could have easily have one sentence in the bad future where they tell us that he found out what black rose would lead to and wanted to stop it but was killed off and the weapon was used..yet there is no mention of him doing something else which gives us a big reason to believe that he let it be used.

Varis may see himself as the one that will lead humanity into a better future but "the greater good" is not a great reason for all actions. With all these wars he will kill many of his soldiers too. He was ready to slaughter all beast tribes, he is completely ready to kill anyone that goes against him even if they too have the best for Garlemald in their minds. He let it happen that other regions under Garlemalds control are threated badly (even sending his monster of a son there..) and he rules with such an iron hand that a well known theatre group flees from the country because they fear for their life simply because of their work. Something even Emet himself never did. For someone who seemingly stands for his people he really was doing a lot too that would hurt them. And in the end continued to work for and believe the words of an Ascian who was wearing the body of his death son.

[Absimiliard]

Snip

No one is saying it was wrong of people to band together and drive the Garlean Empire out of their lands. What we are saying is that Garlemald was well within their rights to defend territories that they conquered. Again, a conquered land is legally the property of the conquering land until such time as it is liberated or released.

The Gunbreaker NPC you refer to did not have his family murdered by the Garlean military. They died as a result of an experiment gone awry - one which the perpetrating scientist has since made every effort to try and make up for. He is now working to make Ishgard a better place as one small step toward redeeming himself.

The game tells us on at least two separate occasions that the Garleans are getting desperate. The losses of Doma and Ala Mhigo left them in a very vulnerable position. Considering their history of abuse, oppression, and violence suffered by the other Spoken races, it's likely they perceive this threat as being of the direst nature.

I asked you to look at it without emotion because facts are facts. Feelings are irrelevant a lot of the time.

All those thaumaturges and whatever else in game that are shown to be able to throw meteors around? That also applies to lore. The War of Magi has already shown us how immensely destructive magic can be. Some areas of the Source were rendered uninhabitable as a result of the effects of spells themselves rather than the aether drain they required to cast. Worse still, there is even some text from way back in the day showing that the Eorzeans were considering taking steps to regain access to magic as it once was instead of simply being content with the lesser form of it they can cast now. Y'know what happens if they do that? War of Magi 2.0, probably yet another calamity, and possibly even the end of the world.