(Spoiler) About amaurots downfall

[Quor]

I do not believe that the Ancients themselves are to blame for the destruction that befell them. From what we saw of their society it was a very peaceful one. The use of creation magic was also regulated and not simply used for pure decadence. In addition, debate was encouraged and decisions were weighed carefully. We also see the sheer scale of the destruction wrought upon the Ancients in the Amaurot dungeon itself. Bringing forth Zodiark was not done on a whim, it was very much presented as a necessity to prevent the Star from fading into nothing.

Having the blame pinned on the Ancients would be a pretty disappointing revelation and I do not doubt that the only reason it is pushed so heavily as a theory around these parts is due to the resident Hydaelyn enthusiasts desperately wanting her to be free of any and all blame, no matter how many characters or factions have to be thrown under the bus in order for such to occur.

By the Twelve Theo you are such a troll lol.

I don't know that it's fair to say the ancient Ascian's are to "blame" for the destruction of their planet, but more like maybe they went too far without knowing exactly how far they had come. Something akin to the Eldar inadvertently summoning Slaanesh into existence from the War40k universe, only instead of engaging in ever-more degenerate debauchery, the Ascian's pushed the envelope of creation magic, making and remaking over and over again until the fabric of reality began to unravel. So, not "blame" in the "this is all their fault; they're bad and they should feel bad" sort of way, but more blame as a sense of taking something for granted. A kind of softer hubris if you will.

Having said that, I personally wouldn't mind if there was some other greater existence being kept in check by Zodiark. It's been awhile since we had some kind of giant space flea from nowhere, and I'm fiending for a hit.

[Theodric]

By the Twelve Theo you are such a troll lol.

I don't know that it's fair to say the ancient Ascian's are to "blame" for the destruction of their planet, but more like maybe they went too far without knowing exactly how far they had come. Something akin to the Eldar inadvertently summoning Slaanesh into existence from the War40k universe, only instead of engaging in ever-more degenerate debauchery, the Ascian's pushed the envelope of creation magic, making and remaking over and over again until the fabric of reality began to unravel. So, not "blame" in the "this is all their fault; they're bad and they should feel bad" sort of way, but more blame as a sense of taking something for granted. A kind of softer hubris if you will.

Having said that, I personally wouldn't mind if there was some other greater existence being kept in check by Zodiark. It's been awhile since we had some kind of giant space flea from nowhere, and I'm fiending for a hit.

Well, I'll own up to making some light quips from time to time but I don't mean any ill by it. I'd like to think that I've contributed enough over the years that I've posted here to not be written off as simply a 'troll'.

That aside, the Zodiark and Hydaelyn story is meant to be wrapped up at some point in the future. Potentially at some point during Shadowbringers, in fact. With that in mind, if the Ancients were victims of some strange alien lifeforms then that sets up a pretty engaging threat to deal with at some point in the future. It may even give us an excellent excuse to head off into space.

[Sylve]

According to the wiki : "At some point, a mysterious "sound" emanating from the depths of their star caused the Ancients to lose control of their Creation magic, unleashing monsters formed from their subconscious fears. "

Now what caused the sound, we don't know. It may have been the result of some malicious design to destroy The Ancients. It appears even the Ascians never figured out the cause in the years after the Sundering and if Emet managed to Rejoin the Star, history may well have repeated itself. I assume the Ascians were complacent because they assume they'll have Zodiark to prevent the effects and thus never looked too deeply into the cause. This is pure speculation on my part.

Something interesting to note about sound in general is that in real life, there are certain frequencies of sound that can induce anxiety, fear and even hallucinations in humans.

During the Magic DPS Role quests, we discover that a mountain is on the verge of collapsing because the aether is being sucked dry via the crystal and the various nasties that were attracted to it.

We also know that Primals devour aether. Primals are created via Creation Magic. From the Lakshmi stuff in Stormblood as well as just general evidence from ARR up to this point, The amount of aether used for the summoning only dictates the size and strength of the Primal.
It could be argued that a Primals devouring of aether is due to an intentional flaw in the process to specifically cause problems for Hydaelyn. But we also know that the Primal in question is formed by the minds of the those who conduct the summoning. So theoretically, it should be possible to summon a Primal that DOESN'T require continual sacrifice of aether to keep it 'fueled'. Which is sorta supported by Bahamut. IIRC, at some point I read ingame that he's considered an 'Elder Primal' and doesn't need external aether. (I could be misremembering)

During one of the Side Quests in Amaurot to make the robes, we get sent out to capture a Cubus to use as fuel for Creating the robes. A device is then produced that converts the captured creature into aether to fuel the robe concept. Only reason we don't make the robes is because we don't know how to use the concept.
Additionally, when the clerk mentions how we don't seem to have any aether whatsoever, he goes to on to give this line {We have special tools that may be used to address this very eventuality.}
That statement implies that the inability to inherently provide Aether for a Creation is something that happens often enough that warranted specialty tools to be developed to get around the limitation.

Which throws doubt onto Emets statements about the aetherial capacity of every Ancient being limitless. If it was limitless, why then would they have a special tool for the "eventuality" of an Ancient incapable of providing their own fuel for a Creation?

To bring this all back around to the sound and its cause, just because Emet and other leading figures in the Ancient world had near limitless aetherial capacities and thus created self contained entites that needed no external aether source, does not mean that every Ancient who ever created a thing was able to do that.
We also know that the tiniest lapse of concentration irrevocably alters the outcome.

If enough Ancients created enough things that drained inconsequential amounts of ambient aether from the land over a long enough period of time (we don't know the scope of their history), then conceivably the Sound was caused by an event within the core of the planet not unlike the collapsing mountain scenario from the Role Quest.

If such an event caused a volcanic eruption of significant force, ejecta from this eruption could easily be thrown into the atmosphere. This would cool and eventually fall back down to the planet, striking regions across the entire planet as we see in the dungeon.

If the Sound caused by such an event was at the appropriate frequency to cause those nearest to feel fear and hallucinate at the same time, anything they attempted to Create would be altered.
Consider the following hypothetical scenario:
-Ancient is affected by the sound and hallucinates.
-Ancient attempts to use Creation Magic to Create something to defend themselves from this hallucination, possibly thinking "Oh no, its going to kill me!" at the time. All while meteors are slamming down around them.
-Concept is tainted by the hallucination, instead of creating a guardian they literally give form to the hallucination which promptly attacks the Creator.

Now imagine that happening to an entire city at the same time. Even those unaffected by the sound itself will find themselves under assault.
The creatures created in this way decimate the city and then roam freely. Potentially seeking sources of aether which they would find in the citizenry of other cities.

But that's just a theory I had during a long work shift...

[Edax]

Something interesting to note about sound in general is that in real life, there are certain frequencies of sound that can induce anxiety, fear and even hallucinations in humans.

I believe that's one of the theories of the infamous Dyatlov Pass incident. A wind going around Kholatsyakal Mountain created a Kármán vortex street, which can produce infrasound capable of inducing panic attacks that caused those mountaineers to tear their way out of their tents and flee the campsite, all while inadequately dressed for the heavy snowfall and sub-zero temperatures. It's almost borderline Event Horizon level of the environment turning people insane.

[Absimiliard]

People seem determined to follow this "the Ancients were the cause of the first apocalypse" mentality despite what little evidence we currently have seeming to suggest the exact opposite.

[QT_Melon]

People seem determined to follow this "the Ancients were the cause of the first apocalypse" mentality despite what little evidence we currently have seeming to suggest the exact opposite.

I think that's because people think the idea of creation magic really "crazy" so they're trying to apply an Occam's Razor to the idea.

However, if anything even though they *may* be the reason it does remind me of the old theories on Dinosaurs causing their own extinction. They were just so different a species.

[Lauront]

Which throws doubt onto Emets statements about the aetherial capacity of every Ancient being limitless. If it was limitless, why then would they have a special tool for the "eventuality" of an Ancient incapable of providing their own fuel for a Creation?

It may have been close enough to all for it to seem that way to him. Consider the case of mentally handicapped individuals. They exist and in enough numbers for accommodations to be made for them, but they're still a small minority statistically speaking. Emet-Selch no doubt does engage in a bit of hyperbole, and we know that the Ancients had differential ability in how ably they could marshal their Creation powers, so it is entirely possible that as the civilisation grew as sophisticated as Amaurot, some could no longer "compete" (put another way: contribute adequately) by this point, without thereby meaning that the average Ancient did not possess remarkable reserves of aether in comparison to sundered souls (especially since the cycle of rebirth via the Lifestream may further wear down the soul's ability, unless one possesses a gift like the Echo.) Thus, not being the kind of society to throw them aside, you have means and methods devised to deal with this, with such individuals nonetheless being decidedly in the minority. Also, as a speculative point: sunder such a soul with already diminished capacities for aether, and perhaps you get something like a Pureblood, i.e. an individual incapable of wielding aether altogether without extrinsic assistance?

I agree with the remainder of your points, in that they provide a plausible account of how it might have happened, in the event that the planetary aether did not replenish itself over time.

People seem determined to follow this "the Ancients were the cause of the first apocalypse" mentality despite what little evidence we currently have seeming to suggest the exact opposite.

Indeed, it is far from confirmed.

I think there's reasonable speculation as to why it could be the case, but at the same time, parasitic entities exist in the setting - without knowing the origin of the world, one cannot rule out the possibility of parasites having lain dormant inside the planet (even placed there potentially) until such time as they were able to free themselves, drawn by the prospect of the aether-rich cities of the Ancients, amongst a plethora of other possibilities. It is just sensible to think that that might be one possible explanation for it, though, even if nothing in the lore allows for a decisive view on it as yet.

How could Hydaelyn possibly be blamed when Amaurot's fall happened before she was even conceived of, much less existed?

What he is probably referring to is the idea that the Sundering was necessary and does not in any way malign her or her summoners, not even to the point of being an unintended mistake with its own dire consequences that may unfold later on, presumably because Zodiark was/became "evil" and tempered his summoners into doing his bidding, whether it be due to being aspected to Darkness or simply some other quirk of his summoning (i.e. summoned to purge the world of an infestation.) And furthermore, that there was something about the ancients (e.g. their powers of creation) which meant they could not be left to exist as they did... again taken to justify the Sundering. At the very least, they could offset such a thing by making the Sundering have its own set of bad side-effects, beyond the soul dilution (which whilst bad, does not seem to result in an inherently unstable set of affairs as things stand.)

Although I think there is a strong possibility, based on my present understanding, that this is the route they're going down (Zodiark tempering his summoners to spread his aspect), I too would prefer that they didn't, and that their disagreement instead revolved around the final step of sacrifice the Convocation desired. I like the idea of being Darkness-aspected not necessarily meaning one is evil whilst still engendering significant differences in their philophical standpoint, such as the steps the Ascians are willing to take to re-create their world and their rationale for it. Whereas if it's all attributable to tempering (and she conveniently did not temper her summoners due to being too weak at the time to do so), it simply becomes a rather generic Manichaean plotline, of which I've already had my fill. They'd just be shifting the "blame" entirely onto Zodiark.

If they just make it so that her summoning was necessary to undo that evil and that all is good and dandy now that she's around, with no adverse consequences, I too would find that disappointing.

Zodiark may have taken on the aspect of Darkness for any number of reasons - intentionally (in the same way your Blessing of Light allowed for the defeat of the Lightwardens, his Darkness may have proved an advantage against the fiends in the world) or unintentionally (i.e. tainted by the scourge of the fiends having taken hold over the world at the time of his summoming, or as a result of his intended purpose influencing the summoning.) I'd just like a bit more out of him than generic evil god who enthralled the ancients who summoned him (and worse yet, deceived them as to his capacity/willingness to revive their fallen), and I am hoping that this is presaged by whatever differences they mentioned there are between Elidibus and the other Overlords.

Having said that, I personally wouldn't mind if there was some other greater existence being kept in check by Zodiark. It's been awhile since we had some kind of giant space flea from nowhere, and I'm fiending for a hit.

Especially something that is a much greater threat yet to a sundered world than a whole one.

As for it being hubris, soft or otherwise, I think it may just be a case of a phenomenon that was nigh imperceptible to them. Very difficult to blame someone for such a thing.

I do not believe that the Ancients themselves are to blame for the destruction that befell them. From what we saw of their society it was a very peaceful one. The use of creation magic was also regulated and not simply used for pure decadence. In addition, debate was encouraged and decisions were weighed carefully. We also see the sheer scale of the destruction wrought upon the Ancients in the Amaurot dungeon itself. Bringing forth Zodiark was not done on a whim, it was very much presented as a necessity to prevent the Star from fading into nothing.

Having the blame pinned on the Ancients would be a pretty disappointing revelation and I do not doubt that the only reason it is pushed so heavily as a theory around these parts is due to the resident Hydaelyn enthusiasts desperately wanting her to be free of any and all blame, no matter how many characters or factions have to be thrown under the bus in order for such to occur.

Agreed and I think that is why the Convocation stalled for a while. The Amaurotines clearly didn't take the notion of intervening abroad lightly and they were the kind to wait, analyse and then act; I think what happened is they were not able to predict the exponential advance of the "Final Days", which then led to more drastic solutions.

[Absimiliard]

Darkness is not synonymous with evil in the FFXIV universe. It is more representative of activity and chaos than it is anything inherently evil. If you ask me, it makes quite a bit of sense that the living embodiment of the will of the planet would be aligned toward those things. A planet is a living, breathing thing that changes constantly.

[Alleluia]

I do not believe that the Ancients themselves are to blame for the destruction that befell them. From what we saw of their society it was a very peaceful one. The use of creation magic was also regulated and not simply used for pure decadence. In addition, debate was encouraged and decisions were weighed carefully. We also see the sheer scale of the destruction wrought upon the Ancients in the Amaurot dungeon itself. Bringing forth Zodiark was not done on a whim, it was very much presented as a necessity to prevent the Star from fading into nothing.

Having the blame pinned on the Ancients would be a pretty disappointing revelation and I do not doubt that the only reason it is pushed so heavily as a theory around these parts is due to the resident Hydaelyn enthusiasts desperately wanting her to be free of any and all blame, no matter how many characters or factions have to be thrown under the bus in order for such to occur.

See, I thought it was being embraced by so many cus the idea is a play on the existential angst so many people have about global warming and environmental crises. "the planet itself rejected them b/c of their neglect and abuse via creation magic" = "people are abusing the planet cus fossil fuels, etc" kinda thing.

Meanwhile, I'm over here thinking there was malevolent force involved and it wasn't really the ancients' fault at all (or at least not 100% their fault. They may have primed the situation by lack of vigilance or something.), since as far as I know we've got nothing indicating creation magic actually hurt anything with its usage. (The magic itself, not the creations made with it.) But I do think Hydaelyn = good, even if we don't have all the details and there is probably more nuance to her than we're aware.

[Cilia]

For the record, I am not of the opinion that Hydaelyn is objectively good. She is, however, a magnanimous benefactor to the mortal races of the world(s) and has gone to great lengths and made many sacrifices in their name; therefore, a couple of relatively minor lies (that she might not even know the truth of if she was not endowed with that knowledge by her creators) do not diminish that magnanimity as far as I am concerned. She may not be objectively good, but as far as mortals are concerned she may as well be, given her existence is the main thing preventing the Ascians from feeding them to Zodiark to resurrect their fallen kin. Our "oath to kill primals" need not extend to those not apparently summoned, especially given Hydaelyn's raison d'être is essentially to fill that "reins of history in the hands of man" rabble people love to call for.

As for the fall of Amaurot? Hmm... well, I don't say it's directly their fault or that they deserved it, but something to remember is that the fae have a strict policy of balancing creation with destruction. If the Ancients did not follow a similar policy, then it would stand to reason that destructive energy would eventually build up and be unleashed in unexpected ways. The Sound, terrible as it and its consequences were, may have simply been the scales of nature rebalancing themselves after an unspecified period of time during which the Ancients lived in their "perfect" societies. It's not really anybody's fault, but an inevitability born of the Ancients' creation magicks not being balanced with destruction magicks. (Or, perhaps, a consequence of their hubris born of pride in their "perfect societies" and the belief that such "perfection" could never end.)

Probably not though. There's so little we know about what happened the best one can do is shoot in the dark.