So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Andevom]

On the other hand, it's equally frustrating to be one of those 24 stuck in a 20-minute war of attrition because people aren't punished for repeated deaths and mechanical failures.

I'd rather sit through the 20 minutes *once* than have to reset the fight over and over with a chance of us not being able to finish the raid. Not against enrage timers for the content they exist in, just wouldn't be enthusiastic about introducing them into this kind of content. DPS check phases exist in every one of the Ivalice raids, so the punishment for failing mechanics is already in place, just not as severe.

[Avidria]

Agreed that this is FFXIV, but many of us with objections to openly allowing parsers have those objections because of our WoW experience. I have yet to encounter any toxic behavior in the duty finder, and I'm inclined to credit the lack of parsers as well as diligent moderation for this. I don't know what else could account for it. You're arguing that parsers make everything better, but those of us who come from WoW know for a fact that the opposite is the case. It's silly to disregard experience from a different MMO for the same feature just because it was a different MMO.

The current don't-ask-don't-tell policy is optimal. Those who want to use parsers properly to improve their own performance can do so. Those who want to misuse parsers to belittle other players are prevented from doing so. Don't fix what's not broken.

See, I don't agree. I played WoW for more than a decade, and I dabbled in raiding (very very casually) BC through WoD and then did a bit of mythic in Legion. And I *loved* having a damage meter.

I loved instantly being able to see how well I was doing compared to where someone with my gear could be - loved having an easy way to see if I was doing something wrong. And you know what, yes, I also liked being able to see when someone in my party was doing something wrong too. Sometimes the wrong was very wrong - I'm talking auto attacking Hunter in a level 80 dungeon wrong, or healer doing zero dispels in a debuff heavy raid wrong here. I saw both of those more than once. I saw some downright baffling things, actually, but I only ever called out the serious problems (and yes I consider afk auto attacking for an entire dungeon to be a serious problem).

Were some people jerks? Absolutely. Did people abuse it? Yeah, that and a whole lot of other things about the game/other add-ons. That happens when you've got thousands of people equipped with the shield of anonymity in a random player queue. I will say, my personal favorite were people spamming meters in low level dungeon... That type of thing was honestly nothing but hilarious and sad.

The only time I saw people getting a big boot for low damage was after LFR wipes... and a lot of times low meant *really freaking low.*

Vast majority of groups though, it either never got mentioned or somebody would ask for a meter link to see how they were doing. This is wild for me to say considering how I feel about Blizz and WoW lately (read: not good), but for this particular topic? I prefer Blizzard's way of handling it.

[HyoMinPark]

I'd rather sit through the 20 minutes *once* than have to reset the fight over and over with a chance of us not being able to finish the raid. Not against enrage timers for the content they exist in, just wouldn't be enthusiastic about introducing them into this kind of content. DPS check phases exist in every one of the Ivalice raids, so the punishment for failing mechanics is already in place, just not as severe.

I’d rather have more enrage mechanics at level cap so that people learn they can’t just faceroll and war of attrition the content.

If Construct 7 had a 10m enrage and you cleared him on the second pull, you would have actually spent less time starting the fight over and trying again than you would have in the 20m pull you described in your initial post.

[AbelArchaniEA]

You soundalike a diva. Either report them or move on. Removing Damage meters won't make people nicer to you.

[Andevom]

I’d rather have more enrage mechanics at level cap so that people learn they can’t just faceroll and war of attrition the content.

If Construct 7 had a 10m enrage and you cleared him on the second pull, you would have actually spent less time starting the fight over and trying again than you would have in the 20m pull you described in your initial post.

My initial post didn't mention the 20 minute pull (I don't think I ever experienced it lasting that long personally), but rather the post I was responding to did.

And yes, in ideal circumstances, it'd be much faster. Realistically though, is the player base really going to take consistent failure at a 24 player raid as an indication that they need to get better? No, they're going to say the devs messed up and made it too hard. The threads that appeared here when Weeping City came out give a good idea of how well this would be received.

I understand where you're coming from and the desire for the player base to work towards improving their performance, and I don't fundamentally disagree with that sentiment. I would say we have content for that. I think of the 24 player raids as a stepping stone towards trying out harder things, so I expect them to be a little more forgiving than a raid or EX trial, but harder than a dungeon. The rewards obtained from them tend to reflect that.

[Raven2014]

My argument is that parses can make some players play badly and do incorrect things because they are overly focused on DPS.

Same thing can be said about without a tool to hold people accountable, bad players will never have the need of improved and good players will be forced to carry. Ignorant is a bliss, and many will choose to stay that way. I already gave the example, a group of 7 people kept demanding the best player among to improve more because they were ignorant to the fact they are worse player than him.

And like I said, while it's true that it can causes some people to be overzealous about their performance, these people would normally already have a high skill level to begin with. While neither extreme is desirable, and I would like to group with people who are conscious and take their performance serious but not to the point of killing themselves and others over it - if you ask me to choose between two extreme: bad players who are ignorant of their performance and elitist players who play selfishly, I can assure you it won't be a hard choice.

I made the remark originally to explain why I prefer the status quo rather than having parsers be an official part of the game.

Are you arguing that parsers should be an official part of the game?

To be frank, the current state is probably the most balance state right now. I don't believe the dev will ever be brave enough to have an official parser in the game. At the same time, they know parse is an invaluable tool that benefit the majority of the people who they design the specific content for (savage/ultimate raiders). So they will forever remain on the sideline with a tacit approval on the unofficial, they will turn away as long as people don't overstep (harassing others). So really if that's what you're arguging for, then you are spending needlessly effort, the status quo will not change.


A good solution for me will be the game has an official parse but only display your own performance, and no one else. You will be told how well you did in relative to people playing the same class, but not of others in your party (so you can't harass them for it). But when I think about it, it won't happen. Because if it happens, I bet it'll take 2 days before complaining post of certain nature will surface, like "this is a game, I don't play a game for it to tell me how bad I am!! It causes me mental distress!". Like I said, ignorant is a bliss. 9/10 times, complains about parsing are from people who got called out by it, you don't hear parsers complaining about parsing, except for asking it to be an official tool. Whether you think it's a desirable behavior or not, it serves as the example to show the average different skill level between who parse and who don't.

On the topic of people from different walks of life coming together, I hope they converse in a polite manner.

Not sure what this even supposed to mean. But I assure you, I don't care who is the person behind the character, only the skill that they display. And I do not condone the harassment of other players for their performance (in fact I look down on it). But while I don't call out bad players, but I would like to have the tool to excuse myself from their presence.

[Mhaeric]

A good solution for me will be the game has an official parse but only display your own performance, and no one else. You will be told how well you did in relative to people playing the same class, but not of others in your party (so you can't harass them for it). But when I think about it, it won't happen. Because if it happens, I bet it'll take 2 days before complaining post of certain nature will surface, like "this is a game, I don't play a game for it to tell me how bad I am!! It causes me mental distress!".

I like this option as well and have posted this suggestion myself. The only difference I would add would be to make it optional and default to off which would handily solve the scenario you brought up in that last sentence I quoted. Additionally, people who want the full parse can still do that using the tools that are already available, and policy regarding discussing parses would not need to change at all since it is all still covered under the harassment and 3rd party tool parts of the ToS.

More specifically, the features I would like to see from an official parser are:

1. My personal DPS for the run.
2. The average or mean DPS for that content across other players of that job. Although it wouldn't be as preferred, a star rating here would be acceptable as long as we see a specific number for our personal DPS since star ratings are not specific enough on their own to be able to fine-tune your performance.
3. The option to turn the parser on and off, with it defaulting to off.
4. It does not display any information about other players except indirectly via the average or mean DPS number for that content.

That is all that is necessary for an official parser for a DPS job.

I have some additional wishlist items for an official parser which I know are not going to happen, but one can dream:

1. For tanks, the official parser keeps track of how many tank busters the boss uses and keeps a count of how many times tank cooldowns (e.g. Sentinel) or enemy damage reduction cooldowns (e.g. Reprisal) were in place at the moment you were hit by one of them. This would the number of times at least one cooldown was in effect when hit by a tank buster rather than a count of the number of cooldowns active when hit by a tank buster. Both of these counts are okay to have, but the first one is more important.

2. For healers, the official parser keeps track of how much overhealing was done and compares it to the average for your job.

[Granyala]

I think Construct 7 [...] an enrage timer would have made that fight so much more manageable.

A moderately strict enrage time would have made that thing basically unkillable and would lead to tons of aborted runs and huge heaps of frustration.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

A moderately strict enrage time would have made that thing basically unkillable and would lead to tons of aborted runs and huge heaps of frustration.

"unkillable".... really?

[Granyala]

Well, if those 23 other people were forced to actually look up guides and get better the playerbase as a whole would benefit.

They won't. That's the point.

You cannot force people to play well. WoW tried that back in Cataclysm and failed very hard with the whole concept.
The majority of the community isn't interested in "playing right" or "challenge".

"unkillable".... really?

Not in a mathematical sense, mind you, but you'd have a high probability of failure, yes.

I'd rather not have to start 24man raids over and over again while hoping to get paired with semi competent people just to get my weekly token.
Rezzing butts for 15m on one boss once and being done with it is the lesser evil here.