Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[OmegaStrongtan]

I chose Dancer as my choice of DPS. Have I shot my own leg?

[Makrar]

It is litterally not based on feelings. Every argument ive stated has been logic and math.

Every single fracking one.

You also choose to intentionally omit 50th percentile below. Thats cherry picking and is in fact feely craft. And if you look sub 50 it will become clear that trick is variable with party skill.

And keep in mind raid dps is more rounded out when other buffers are in a group too.


Insteas of dismissing the idea because of your poor cherry picked fact above consider doing the following instead;

Let's look at lower percentile and let's see how "Cherry picked" my trick attack "feely craft" is


10% Percentile - 791 DPS (or 7.7% of total DPS)
25% Percentile - 818 DPS (or 7.6% of total DPS)
40% Percentile - 826 DPS (or 7.5% of total DPS)
50% Percentile - 843 DPS (or 7.5% of total DPS)
75% Percentile - 846 DPS (or 7.3% of total DPS)
90% Percentile - 878 DPS (or 7.3% of total DPS)
95% Percentile - 907 DPS (or 7.4% of total DPS)
99% Percentile - 954 DPS (or 7.4% of total DPS)

Still not seeing the math to back up trick attack being massively group dependant on average. (also a NiN will typically make up around 13% of the difference with their own personal dps)

Theres plenty of valid reasons to advocate for buffs but "my dps utility is very sensitive to my group" is demonstrably not one of them.


None of the above is perfect but there really isn't any indication that this is an observable thing that's occurring in any kind of numbers.

[BigBossCL]

Where are you looking to get the trick attack percentage for each percentile?

EDIT, I see you're just taking the PDPS and RDPS numbers.

[Vendalwind]

Let's look at lower percentile and let's see how "Cherry picked" my trick attack "feely craft" is


10% Percentile - 791 DPS (or 7.7% of total DPS)
25% Percentile - 818 DPS (or 7.6% of total DPS)
40% Percentile - 826 DPS (or 7.5% of total DPS)
50% Percentile - 843 DPS (or 7.5% of total DPS)
75% Percentile - 846 DPS (or 7.3% of total DPS)
90% Percentile - 878 DPS (or 7.3% of total DPS)
95% Percentile - 907 DPS (or 7.4% of total DPS)
99% Percentile - 954 DPS (or 7.4% of total DPS)

Still not seeing the math to back up trick attack being massively group dependant on average. (also a NiN will typically make up around 13% of the difference with their own personal dps)

Theres plenty of valid reasons to advocate for buffs but "my dps utility is very sensitive to my group" is demonstrably not one of them.


None of the above is perfect but there really isn't any indication that this is an observable thing that's occurring in any kind of numbers.

You are right, that is definitely not as significant a gap as I would have expected. I can tell you tho in my personal runs i have seen bigger disparities. (that is definitely a feely statement) Where are you getting this info? PM it to me or something because im actually legitimately interested, i Dont know how to navigate our resources to find that info so concisely.

However
The problem with your above is looking at it as % of the NIN's total contribution. Thats not how it should be observed, but rather the percent in and of itself valued. IE 791/954 yielding an 18% difference and a gap of 163 rDPS, additionally compared with the total skill gap the NIN has in pDPS as well.
In a perfect balance world many people say the balance between classes should be ~500 dps from worst class to best within a role, so when looking at NIN having the trick allow for a 163~ dps gap is actually fairly significant.

It is still how you look at it tho. I'm operating under the hope that balance is much more aligned. If you check that post I linked in an earlier statement my theoretical improvement the a 2 raid 2 utility dps should gain over a 4 pure man dps group happens to be exactly... 400 dps. That was with 2 utility dps considered. Meaning I expected in my theoretical analysis to see ~200 rDPS gained by proper group comp as compared to improper. Which is interestingly close to 163.

[TaiyouSeishin]

What? lol

BRDs and MCHs refused to party without a DRG a lot of the time because of shown pDPS, not rDPS. It wasn't "I like you cuz you increase my numbers," it was "I don't want to party with you because you don't." MNKs abandoned for NIN, SAMs abandoned for anything, BLMs abandoned for SMN, when pDPS was all that was shown people only cared about the jobs that could boost their pDPS. With rDPS and aDPS, we get a much clearer picture of where jobs stand in a hierarchy, and the team comps that are prioritized for highest rDPS...give the highest raid-wide DPS now.

There are drawbacks with anything, but in my opinion rDPS paints a much better picture of job (not necessarily player) performance.

...... what part of my post confuses you. During the time of pdps being shown onlogs "i like you because you buff my numbers" like how brd and mch would prefer to not raid with anyone but a drg... how is what you said different besides being like entering a building with the left door instead of the right?.

And that when it went to rdps, it became "now you just want me to pad your numbers"

For this additional effort for which their metrics of performance will never increase they are called "selfish".
Meanwhile, jobs whose rDPS is literally carried by their party are considered the more "selfless" jobs.

As what this implied. Which is not what was intended. It was intended to show the worth of a class with less pdps, without you having to manually do the math yourself. But now since logs show rdps, now the utility classes get the "padding"

@Shurrikhan

And before we continue the tangent on the meaning for the term 'selfish dps'. The fact that you knew what they meant and slapped them with it anyway is the problem. Instead of going "i dont like the term as its outdated" you then distorted what they were trying to say. So you even FURTHERED any person misreading what they meant.

A utility dps, sacrifices their pdps to give utility to the pure dps (since you dont like 'selfish dps') who then works with it to bring more damage for the raid as a whole. By this and your logic no class is actually selfish by your way of using the word. Since this is a teamwork based game.

You just went out of your way to prove a point. Granted, most of us posting on forums do.

[Myon88]

There are two things you need to remember to account for when looking at the value of trick attack now.

1. Most of the really good players have fled the job to play mnk and drg.
Players like that have no qualms jumping onto whatever is strong at the moment to reap the benefits, and not waste their time. What this means is that current top end NIN performance is missing a lot of the 'usual suspects' (and their very excellent groups) who would have shown you what truly optimal trick attack usage looks like. A '99' now would probably be more like a 90 or 95 if all the good players came back to play NIN, so their ceiling is basically artificially depressed.

Just look at the fastest runs for all the savage bosses in the speed category (these are the runs with the highest raid dps, as high rdps = faster kill), see how far you have to scroll before you find a group with a ninja, and how rare they are.

2. The proportion of total NIN damage that trick attack accounts for being invariant across percentiles is fairly normal
The reason it's the same is because even though 99th percentile groups are better than 10th percentile groups at taking advantage of trick attack, 99th percentile ninjas are also just plain better than 10th percentile ninjas at their own personal rotations. So their own personal damage goes up, as does how good their 7 group members are at dumping damage into trick attack - which keeps the proportion even across the board. Now, if you don't want it to be 'even', all you need to do is take that 10th percentile NIN and put them in a 99th percentile group, then you'd see trick attack's contribution proportion rise from 7% to 10% or something. Put a good ninja in a bad group, and it'll go below

What you should be looking at is the absolute value of the dps increase from trick attack, which does increase as you can see. And you can certainly argue that it or ninja's personal dps needs to be buffed, as clearly even combining the two (via rdps parsing) they don't even approach monk and dragoon numbers - but I don't see anyone disputing that here.

Selfish DPS need good groups as well to parse well - this isnt some unique stipulation that applies to non selfish dps

This statement is now outdated with the advent of raid dps as the main mode of ranking. I'm a little unsure what you mean by it actually because nothing in your comment addresses it or proves it at all, you just talked about ninja instead of selfish dps. When it comes to raid dps, selfish jobs now do the exact same damage in every fight because any damage they would gain from 'good groups' and their buffs wouldn't have been added to them anyway. No longer do you need to worry about whether your bard knows how to foes on time or not, you'll be credited for your performance the exact same way no matter which group you're in.

Conversely, under this mode of parsing it's support jobs that have the burden of being dependent on their group. You might be a 99th percentile ninja in terms of personal skill, but if your group does not know how to make use of your trick attack, you won't get as much dps credit from it as other ninjas which will result in a 90 or 95th percentile parse in reality.

Edit: I'd actually like to know where you got those original trick attack numbers from in the first place, did you just choose random ninja parses at each percentile tier or something?
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/kd4D9...translate=true
Look at this log from the current rank 2 ninja on Titan. Mouse over their rdps number and you see 1381.5 dps has been credited to trick attack, out of their 13507 rdps total. That's 10.2%, so...

[Nielk]

gonna let ya know mnk/drg grey parse is better than a ninja 80-99 parse sooo thats saying a-lot Especially if your just trying help pugs on Nin and just get booted out for just being a Ninja literally enter pf gets kicked...fully geared nin begone...

[SaberMaxwell]

...... what part of my post confuses you. During the time of pdps being shown onlogs "i like you because you buff my numbers" like how brd and mch would prefer to not raid with anyone but a drg... how is what you said different besides being like entering a building with the left door instead of the right?.

And that when it went to rdps, it became "now you just want me to pad your numbers"

Just the part where you're saying it wasn't always "you just want me to pad your numbers." Why take a nin? Trick Attack. Why? It pads numbers. Why take DRG? Litany, piercing, tether. Why? Pads numbers.

Number padding is less possible with rDPS than before, where before everyone could single Target buff a singular player to get them an orange. Now if you really want to go out of your way to pad you'd need to more or less handpick the whole static to have a composition your job would do best in.

Which is a very comp focused way of padding, contrary to your original stated complaint about rDPS.

[Makrar]

snip

I dont disagree with anything you're saying here - Ninja needs a buff (a big one) along with increases across the board for the lowest performers. What i wanted to highlight that the rDPS scaling more to the group performance while there, its not something that is massively impactful when averaged out. IE - there shouldnt be bigs buffs added on top of proper tuning because you provide a dps buff/debuff.

They should get buffs so they roughly equal/ slightly ahead or slightly below everyone else once all things are taken in consideration


The numbers was taken from the Ninja rdps - adps from the aggregated data summary across 4 fights. It wouldnt surprise me if the max value of trick attack achieved by a group was double the average if not more. I mostly picked Trick Attack as an example because its an easy point to look at and the same behavior should hold true across the jobs.

[SaitoHikari]

...... what part of my post confuses you. During the time of pdps being shown onlogs "i like you because you buff my numbers" like how brd and mch would prefer to not raid with anyone but a drg... how is what you said different besides being like entering a building with the left door instead of the right?.

And that when it went to rdps, it became "now you just want me to pad your numbers"

To be fair, your second point literally means the same thing as the first (or is very poorly explained, as you're not really talking about how the padding in the second point is happening - unless you're talking about speedrun padding, which was always a thing), which is where the confusion is coming from. The only padding that's really possible now is based on how well other party members are taking advantage of any party buffs you may provide, rather than super buffing one party member to high heaven for the sake of a ranking on a website.

On that note, I see the switch from total DPS to raid DPS as something that's highly interesting in how it altered community mindset, and shows how much power FFLogs has on the raid community. Before the switch, people were calling Dancer being the new meta, and kept saying that Bards were going to be dead. So many people were making plans to include Dancer in their raid parties purely because they wanted said Dancer to pad their personal numbers on a website ranking. This incredible overreaction led to the site owner switching to raid DPS display where damage contribution from party buffs is no longer credited to the beneficiary of said buff, and added to the original caster instead. Almost immediately, Dancers got dropped overnight, especially when data started coming in, showing that Dancer's actual party contribution really did not make up for their low personal DPS. (Ninja too, but the Ninjas noticed what was happening long before the DPS display switch, since Trick Attack contribution isn't as obvious as a Dancer supporting a single party member.)

I'm of the mindset that the change to this raid DPS display is still one of the best things to happen to the community, because it shifted the community away from enforcing a more unnatural meta based around stacking party buffs to inflate one's personal ranking on a third party website, and instead exposed fundamental design/balance flaws inherent between the classes themselves. Had we kept with the old system, we'd have ended up with an underpowered support class (or two if you include Ninja), where a large portion of the community would have argued for them to remain as is because 'they get guaranteed raid slots due to being good at directly padding other people's numbers'. I noted a shift in behavior among Red Mages especially, as I don't really see them holding back Embolden during their openers for their own numbers anymore - which is a net positive on the teamwork scale. I'm also really of the mindset that if this change happened a whole expansion sooner, this support/piercing meta wouldn't have dominated the SB raid scene as much as it did, and Black Mages/Samurai would have been more readily accepted into parties. (Red Mages would have still been screwed though, and Ninja likely wouldn't have been considered a meta class.)

(And another positive is that this raid DPS display made it disgustingly clear that Monk and Dragoon especially are just straight overpowered, since they're not categorized as selfish DPS and yet have the damage output matching them + party buffs on top of that. It also shows that the gap between Black Mage and the other two casters is far wider than anything considered reasonable, and that the other two are being taxed far too much for possessing Raise. Staying on the old system would have likely muddled the waters a lot, because people would still be placing emphasis on data revolving around a smaller pool of classes in regards to party composition - even though the averages under the old system would eventually display a similar disparity between classes that the raid DPS shows, the numbers on the higher end of the data points would have exclusively revolved around specific party setups.)