Adventurer in need: Originality

[Hatstand]

That’s what you don’t get though, I don’t want variety or super complex stuff. If it gets too complex, then I can no longer play the game which would be sad because then I can’t experience any of the story. I switched from rdm because it was too complex. I’m not a hardcore raider, I’m just a casual that likes the story. I don’t need more complexity. Whm is fine as it is.

I agree that it's good for players like you to have a class that suits them. I've always kinda seen WHM as that, and though I sympathise with WHMs who want more complexity, at least they previously had two more complex classes which they could choose instead (ofc that's not to say old WHM has never had issues. It did and it does). However, by the same virtue that you yourself want a simple class, you'd have to agree it's a bad thing that those of us who want a deep or complex class no longer have access to that.

I also have little interest in playing dps classes, because the purely mechanical challenge of doing your rotation perfectly doesn't appeal to me. What does appeal to me is the challenge of balancing defensive responsibility with diverse offensive options, of reacting to situations in such a way as to maximise my offence while maintaining my defence, while not being bored out of my skull by my offensive options. There is no longer any class in the game that offers this.

[Evanoel]

I like the ideas. Would be very difficult to balance though.

[Ubbernaut]

The BIG issue with the addition of new skills, due to SHB homogenization EVERYTHING needs to be exactly like the other thing.

All party DPS buffs are to be~ 5%, doesn't matter if one click or 4 clicks to achieve it.

All party-wide mitigation has to be 10%. No more, no less.

Because of this 'The most strict Balance in all things' approach, getting exciting and bizzare skills has become substantially less likely. As SE seemed to have taken the most boring approach to balance and that is balance by making most stuff the same.

[Acidblood]

As it stands now, it seems like SE is going the route of complexity for healers being linked to knowledge of a given fight, much like tank complexity works. I've seen many tank players lament the "simplicity" of the combos that tanks have, and asking for something more "challenging" but that misses the mark. The complexity for a tank is having arguably the most intimate knowledge of a fight such that you know exactly when to use your various cooldowns and how close you can cut something to snag an extra GCD in a way that no DPS will ever think about it. The combos are kept simple for a reason; they're not the main challenge or focus of a tank job. DPS jobs have combos and rotations as their main focus. Healers - on the whole - seem to have moved more towards the tank style of "encounter complexity" as opposed to "rotational complexity." And this likely was done at least in part to avoid the situation of "AST/SCH are more complex to play than WHM so playing them successfully should thus be more rewarding" which saw an entire healing class largely sidelined for most of SB.

Then with the possible exception of Savage SE has utterly failed... I got E3N for Raid Roulette the other day as a Tank, I had never tanked it before and was a bit nervous, I needn't have been though as the only Tank thing I had to worry about was a very clearly marked 'tank buster' every other minute (which wouldn't have killed me even without mitigation, but I like being kind to healers).

Doing the same fight again as a BLM though, I had to get my timings, cooldowns, and movements right for a whole bunch of mechanics lest I screw up / drop my rotation (or die!) and have to start over... so it was far more involved than tanking (and as a result, far more enjoyable).

Additionally, I still remember tanking Midas (A5-8) normal mode back in HW and almost every fight as a tank I had to worry about mitigation (I would have died otherwise), positioning, tank swaps, Cover as PLD, etc. So even comparing tanking now to tanking (or healing) back in 3.X it feels less engaging on an encounter level than it used to.


NB: As for WHM being side-lined, that was (is) due to people’s obsession with DPS (driven by hard enrage and FFlogs); WHM was plenty capable of clearing the content, it just couldn't quite post the rDPS, or boost others rDPS the way AST and SCH could.

[DiznypKC]

That’s what you don’t get though, I don’t want variety or super complex stuff. If it gets too complex, then I can no longer play the game which would be sad because then I can’t experience any of the story. I switched from rdm because it was too complex. I’m not a hardcore raider, I’m just a casual that likes the story. I don’t need more complexity. Whm is fine as it is.

As I mentioned earlier, and I’ll say again, it’s possible to make the class feel more evolved without necessarily making it any more complex than it is now for players such as yourself. Engaging gameplay and simplicity are not mutually exclusive. You don’t have to have one or the other.

If things exactly as they are suit you just fine, then good. I’m not asking to take that away from you. Nor should you request that nothing every change, grow, and develop for other players.

[Quor]

Then with the possible exception of Savage SE has utterly failed... I got E3N for Raid Roulette the other day as a Tank, I had never tanked it before and was a bit nervous, I needn't have been though as the only Tank thing I had to worry about was a very clearly marked 'tank buster' every other minute (which wouldn't have killed me even without mitigation, but I like being kind to healers).

Doing the same fight again as a BLM though, I had to get my timings, cooldowns, and movements right for a whole bunch of mechanics lest I screw up / drop my rotation (or die!) and have to start over... so it was far more involved than tanking (and as a result, far more enjoyable).

Additionally, I still remember tanking Midas (A5-8) normal mode back in HW and almost every fight as a tank I had to worry about mitigation (I would have died otherwise), positioning, tank swaps, Cover as PLD, etc. So even comparing tanking now to tanking (or healing) back in 3.X it feels less engaging on an encounter level than it used to.


NB: As for WHM being side-lined, that was (is) due to people’s obsession with DPS (driven by hard enrage and FFlogs); WHM was plenty capable of clearing the content, it just couldn't quite post the rDPS, or boost others rDPS the way AST and SCH could.

Well yes, that's a braindead fight on normal. Large pulls in expert roulette provide more challenge than tanking E3N. A better example would be why a tank doesn't want to re-center Titania EX immediately following the first frost rune, or how far is acceptable to pull Inno towards the edge during 4x Starbirth. Small things in the large scheme of a fight, but if you don't do them right, you could wipe the whole raid.

As for WHM, yes, that's the issue, as well as a few other classes. Again, complexity in and of itself isn't necessarily bad, but asking for core design changes in the name of "complexity" is a sure route to seeing one or more jobs sidelined, because pretty much everyone agrees that a more complex job should be met with commensurate reward *if* performed correctly. So adding raw complexity to a job isn't going to solve any issues (at least, not any of the issues SE has tried to solve with the actions they have taken as of late). The key then comes in how complexity can be added on another level beyond changing core job design. A good example of that would be old Hagakure in 4.0 SAM. It opened a very strategic meta-game as SAM where you made certain decisions on Sen usage throughout a fight that would have an impact several GCD's down the line. It was very enjoyable and engaging for those who understood it, but wasn't strictly "better" than any other job. It was simply another style of approaching a fight, utilizing a longer-term thinking and planning strategy instead of the more GCD-to-GCD tactical approach a MNK would take.

As far as I can see, SE wants healers to be focusing on healing. I don't have a problem with this per se, but it would be nice if actual heal checks made it back into the game to support that style of encounter. The endless enrages and dps checks have gotten old.

[Billythepancake]

As far as I can see, SE wants healers to be focusing on healing. I don't have a problem with this per se, but it would be nice if actual heal checks made it back into the game to support that style of encounter. The endless enrages and dps checks have gotten old.

The problem with the whole "SE wants us to focus on healing more " is that, the game is not designed for us to heal more, and outside of an ARR level rework, I dont see how they could fix it. Encounters as well as healer kits are not designed to have healers heal most, or even half, of the time. For an example, look at scholar, your main heals are all locked behind a timer, and healing outside of that is expensive, and if done too much will screw you over. IMO SE is better off just embracing green dps, and just giving us things to do other than heal, because both the encounters and classes are better designed for it

[Hatstand]

Alternately, they could make us focus on healing more in the new content by making it require more healing, and leave us with our offensive kits to be used in older content and when we get the hang of new content.

[Tahldon]

IMO SE is better off just embracing green dps, and just giving us things to do other than heal, because both the encounters and classes are better designed for it

This gave me the thought that if they don't want us to straight DPS, the could give us support based DPS abilities like Stygian Spikes to cast on teammates, or even Stoneskin back for WHMs and an amended 10s (or so) Protect for SCH. Stuff like that would be cool, I'd think.

Or even some debuff oriented skills.

[Billythepancake]

This gave me the thought that if they don't want us to straight DPS, the could give us support based DPS abilities like Stygian Spikes to cast on teammates, or even Stoneskin back for WHMs and an amended 10s (or so) Protect for SCH. Stuff like that would be cool, I'd think.

Or even some debuff oriented skills.

Either of those is fine. I just want something to do other than spam broil ad nauseam. IMO SB SCH was great for that, it wasnt even as complex as say, RDM, but it was complex and satisfying enough, and that's all I ask for. 3 dots, a fairy that casted completely independently of you, as well as having 2 unique fairies with their own abilities, and aetherflow choices between dps/healing. That's all I need and all I could ask for in terms of scholar. It wasnt perfect, but it was a great baseline to build upon.

IDC if my dps is direct or indirect, I just want more to do in my massive amounts of down time. I dont think theres a problem with having a lot of down time as a healer, there just needs to be something to do during it