Adventurer in need: Originality

[Acidblood]

As it stands now, it seems like SE is going the route of complexity for healers being linked to knowledge of a given fight, much like tank complexity works. I've seen many tank players lament the "simplicity" of the combos that tanks have, and asking for something more "challenging" but that misses the mark. The complexity for a tank is having arguably the most intimate knowledge of a fight such that you know exactly when to use your various cooldowns and how close you can cut something to snag an extra GCD in a way that no DPS will ever think about it. The combos are kept simple for a reason; they're not the main challenge or focus of a tank job. DPS jobs have combos and rotations as their main focus. Healers - on the whole - seem to have moved more towards the tank style of "encounter complexity" as opposed to "rotational complexity." And this likely was done at least in part to avoid the situation of "AST/SCH are more complex to play than WHM so playing them successfully should thus be more rewarding" which saw an entire healing class largely sidelined for most of SB.

Then with the possible exception of Savage SE has utterly failed... I got E3N for Raid Roulette the other day as a Tank, I had never tanked it before and was a bit nervous, I needn't have been though as the only Tank thing I had to worry about was a very clearly marked 'tank buster' every other minute (which wouldn't have killed me even without mitigation, but I like being kind to healers).

Doing the same fight again as a BLM though, I had to get my timings, cooldowns, and movements right for a whole bunch of mechanics lest I screw up / drop my rotation (or die!) and have to start over... so it was far more involved than tanking (and as a result, far more enjoyable).

Additionally, I still remember tanking Midas (A5-8) normal mode back in HW and almost every fight as a tank I had to worry about mitigation (I would have died otherwise), positioning, tank swaps, Cover as PLD, etc. So even comparing tanking now to tanking (or healing) back in 3.X it feels less engaging on an encounter level than it used to.


NB: As for WHM being side-lined, that was (is) due to people’s obsession with DPS (driven by hard enrage and FFlogs); WHM was plenty capable of clearing the content, it just couldn't quite post the rDPS, or boost others rDPS the way AST and SCH could.

[Quor]

Then with the possible exception of Savage SE has utterly failed... I got E3N for Raid Roulette the other day as a Tank, I had never tanked it before and was a bit nervous, I needn't have been though as the only Tank thing I had to worry about was a very clearly marked 'tank buster' every other minute (which wouldn't have killed me even without mitigation, but I like being kind to healers).

Doing the same fight again as a BLM though, I had to get my timings, cooldowns, and movements right for a whole bunch of mechanics lest I screw up / drop my rotation (or die!) and have to start over... so it was far more involved than tanking (and as a result, far more enjoyable).

Additionally, I still remember tanking Midas (A5-8) normal mode back in HW and almost every fight as a tank I had to worry about mitigation (I would have died otherwise), positioning, tank swaps, Cover as PLD, etc. So even comparing tanking now to tanking (or healing) back in 3.X it feels less engaging on an encounter level than it used to.


NB: As for WHM being side-lined, that was (is) due to people’s obsession with DPS (driven by hard enrage and FFlogs); WHM was plenty capable of clearing the content, it just couldn't quite post the rDPS, or boost others rDPS the way AST and SCH could.

Well yes, that's a braindead fight on normal. Large pulls in expert roulette provide more challenge than tanking E3N. A better example would be why a tank doesn't want to re-center Titania EX immediately following the first frost rune, or how far is acceptable to pull Inno towards the edge during 4x Starbirth. Small things in the large scheme of a fight, but if you don't do them right, you could wipe the whole raid.

As for WHM, yes, that's the issue, as well as a few other classes. Again, complexity in and of itself isn't necessarily bad, but asking for core design changes in the name of "complexity" is a sure route to seeing one or more jobs sidelined, because pretty much everyone agrees that a more complex job should be met with commensurate reward *if* performed correctly. So adding raw complexity to a job isn't going to solve any issues (at least, not any of the issues SE has tried to solve with the actions they have taken as of late). The key then comes in how complexity can be added on another level beyond changing core job design. A good example of that would be old Hagakure in 4.0 SAM. It opened a very strategic meta-game as SAM where you made certain decisions on Sen usage throughout a fight that would have an impact several GCD's down the line. It was very enjoyable and engaging for those who understood it, but wasn't strictly "better" than any other job. It was simply another style of approaching a fight, utilizing a longer-term thinking and planning strategy instead of the more GCD-to-GCD tactical approach a MNK would take.

As far as I can see, SE wants healers to be focusing on healing. I don't have a problem with this per se, but it would be nice if actual heal checks made it back into the game to support that style of encounter. The endless enrages and dps checks have gotten old.

[DiznypKC]

I don’t like this at all. I play whm because it is easy compared to something like blm or rdm. I don’t want complex stuff or rotations I have to memorize. I suck at memorizing rotations and because of it I can never play a dps optimally. I prefer my simple dia, glare and holy damage. I don’t need anything else. And there are already plenty of healing tools as well, particularly lilies; I like the new abilities with lilies and it makes healing easier for me in expert dungeons and other higher level stuff. I don’t understand why people want to make things so complicated to the point where it’s no longer playable.

It's possible to increase the complexity of a rotation without making it unplayable. As it stands, healer's "rotation" is not really a rotation at all. It's literally a single button, with another button that you press every 30 seconds.

No one is asking for a Black Mage or Red Mage rotation for Healers. It wouldn't be plausible to give us a rotation that would suffer if dropped. A Healer needs to be able to react to any situation. However, it IS possible for us to be given a system that feels like it evolves as we utilize it.

For example, take away the Lillies from White Mage and give them a three petalled lily gauge: 1 for each element that they use. Casting Stone, Aero, and Fluid Aura (with it's damage back, please and thank you), adds energy to the corresponding petal. When that petal is full, that element becomes awakened (or whatever terminology you want to use). Stone becomes Quake, Aero becomes Tornado, and Fluid Aura becomes Flood.

Boom. You've already made DPS more enjoyable but not at all more complex than what we already have. You could manage that, could you not?

[Billythepancake]

It's possible to increase the complexity of a rotation without making it unplayable. As it stands, healer's "rotation" is not really a rotation at all. It's literally a single button, with another button that you press every 30 seconds.

No one is asking for a Black Mage or Red Mage rotation for Healers. It wouldn't be plausible to give us a rotation that would suffer if dropped. A Healer needs to be able to react to any situation. However, it IS possible for us to be given a system that feels like it evolves as we utilize it.

For example, take away the Lillies from White Mage and give them a three petalled lily gauge: 1 for each element that they use. Casting Stone, Aero, and Fluid Aura (with it's damage back, please and thank you), adds energy to the corresponding petal. When that petal is full, that element becomes awakened (or whatever terminology you want to use). Stone becomes Quake, Aero becomes Tornado, and Fluid Aura becomes Flood.

Boom. You've already made DPS more enjoyable but not at all more complex than what we already have. You could manage that, could you not?

That's a pretty neat idea, I would love to see it implemented, tbh. Though, not sure a lot of WHMs would be happy to see misery go. Heh.

[DiznypKC]

That's a pretty neat idea, I would love to see it implemented, tbh. Though, not sure a lot of WHMs would be happy to see misery go. Heh.

Not necessarily. The funny thing is, a lot of ideas for job evolution can be found in the MSQ. Personally, I think it's silly that White Mages spam Holy. Holy is supposed to be our ultimate (besides LB). So for 2.0, change Holy to something a little less grand and lose the Stun. For time sake, let's call it "Pearl" (the OG Holy) and give it a blind effect, or no effect at all, to bring it in line with Art of War and Gravity. In 3.0, when we're focused on the Holy See and all that divine mumbo jumbo, let's add a center to the Lily gauge to represent Light, that fills over time and changes Pearl to Holy. In 4.0, let's add Quake/Tornado/Flood. In 5.0, after a Holy proc, the Lily becomes the Blood Lily. Stone becomes Glare, Aero becomes Die, Fluid Aura becomes Banish, and Holy becomes Misery. When Misery is cast, Blood Lily ends and reverts back to our Source-White Mage Lily. Just an example on how it COULD be done when you look at the evolution of the storyline.

[AphraelAmarantha]

snip

That's why I like it, there is no rotation. It is reactive. Its simple to memorize, use this skill in the event this happens, use this for when this happens and so on. I like that better than having to memorize a string of abilities just to get a heal or damage off or use another whole string of abilities for when something procs or whatever. That's just too much for me. And I don't like having to keep track of three or more meters. Rdm was hard enough with two. I like where lilies are now, just one gauge that goes up in battle. Use three lilies to get red lily, use red lily and repeat. I like where it is now. Its not complex, its simple and i can handle that. Anymore and it gets too much.

[DiznypKC]

You can keep the class reactive and engaging at the same time. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

[DiznypKC]

The point is, you can passively make the class more engaging without creating risk. That's the kind of mechanics healers should have. They can still choose whether or not they want to be a healbot, or utilize their full kit. They wouldn't suffer from dropping a cast, but they could still feel like they're doing more than pressing 1 2 11111111111111111111111 2 1111111111111111111 for ten minutes.

[Sunhwapark]

The point is, you can passively make the class more engaging without creating risk. That's the kind of mechanics healers should have. They can still choose whether or not they want to be a healbot, or utilize their full kit. They wouldn't suffer from dropping a cast, but they could still feel like they're doing more than pressing 1 2 11111111111111111111111 2 1111111111111111111 for ten minutes.

I must ask. How do you make something more passively engaging?

There was the active cleric stance dancing before - it had risks to use with damage being the reward, but that got removed. Debuffing bosses via Virus/Disable got taken and given to other roles. MP Recovery skills/debuff cleanses were all unified into lucid dreaming & esuna.

Healers are on a very thin plate at what they can do at the moment. Dealing or Healing is all there really is to do, once players identify what unavoidable damage does not 1-shot them.

[DiznypKC]

In order to passively make a class feel more engaging, you would have to organically evolve the mechanics so that there is more of a progression as opposed to a rotation.

The Blood Lily mechanic is an example. It’s not a good one, but it’s a step in the right direction. It would be better if there were another way to expend lilies that didn’t require healing. I find myself using Solace between wall to wall pulls in Ex roulettes because I don’t need them otherwise. If we had, say, a shield we could throw out with a lily, that would be an improvement.

I’m getting off topic, but the point is that the Blood Lily is sort of a passive way of making White Mage feel like they’re more engaged. It gives the class a touch more complexity without making it busy, unlike the new card mini-game Astros have or the lackluster faeries Scholars use.