Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Kabooa]

This is why i dislike rdps being seen now, because it went from "i like you cuz you increase my numbers" to "now you just want me to super pad your numbers" and not about "does this improve our party comp"

I honestly wonder what the raid community would look like if it did this 2 years ago instead of now.

Dragoon's "RDPS" in Heavensward and in Stormblood was beyond stupid from Piercing alone, let alone adding Battle Litany into the mix. A dragoon would account for a near 8-10% increase on Machinist and Bard in Stormblood, and if you had both in the party, whoah nelly. We're talking RDPS values using today's numbers, in Stormblood's tuning.

Hell, thinking on that, it's no wonder that with Piercing gone and them folding that back into Dragoon that it sits where it does.

[TaiyouSeishin]

I honestly wonder what the raid community would look like if it did this 2 years ago instead of now.

Dragoon's "RDPS" in Heavensward and in Stormblood was beyond stupid from Piercing alone, let alone adding Battle Litany into the mix. A dragoon would account for a near 8-10% increase on Machinist and Bard in Stormblood, and if you had both in the party, whoah nelly. We're talking RDPS values using today's numbers, in Stormblood's tuning.

Hell, thinking on that, it's no wonder that with Piercing gone and them folding that back into Dragoon that it sits where it does.

I rather liked the idea of a melee synergizing directly with a ranged class though

[Kabooa]

I rather liked the idea of a melee synergizing directly with a ranged class though

Everybody does, until they're not around.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Everybody does, until they're not around.

A shame D: ......
...since when was your hair white? O.o

[SaberMaxwell]

This is why i dislike rdps being seen now, because it went from "i like you cuz you increase my numbers" to "now you just want me to super pad your numbers" and not about "does this improve our party comp"

What? lol

BRDs and MCHs refused to party without a DRG a lot of the time because of shown pDPS, not rDPS. It wasn't "I like you cuz you increase my numbers," it was "I don't want to party with you because you don't." MNKs abandoned for NIN, SAMs abandoned for anything, BLMs abandoned for SMN, when pDPS was all that was shown people only cared about the jobs that could boost their pDPS. With rDPS and aDPS, we get a much clearer picture of where jobs stand in a hierarchy, and the team comps that are prioritized for highest rDPS...give the highest raid-wide DPS now.

There are drawbacks with anything, but in my opinion rDPS paints a much better picture of job (not necessarily player) performance.

[Shurrikhan]

\There are drawbacks with anything, but in my opinion rDPS paints a much better picture of job (not necessarily player) performance.

Agreed. I'd prefer maximization of raid (de)buffs (embonused damage out of total possible embonused damage, so to speak) to play a part in player scores, since that'd allow players to differentiate themselves slightly how much rDPS they're affording their rDPS jobs and would thus serve as a better player performance metric, but there are virtually no drawbacks to the composition-comparisons made by the current rDPS metrics. Clear times themselves will always show the absolute max potential of compositions, but rDPS is just a far clearer metric for a job's potential performance than unadjusted pDPS ever was.

[Makrar]

Selfish DPS need good groups as well to parse well - this isnt some unique stipulation that applies to non selfish dps


Taking Trick attack as an example (its the poster child of FFXIV dps utility/debuffs), lets look at FFLogs and see how much dps does trick attack provides to Ninja's over a spread of percentiles. (Didnt look at below 50% as i believe significant rotation and encounter mistakes can be found below this level which renders this conversation mostly pointless or above 99% a)

Eden Savage - DPS - All Bosses -Over a Range of 2 Weeks - Current Standings - Standard Comps - Data as of 22/08/2019 morning

99% Percentile Ninja - Trick Attack is worth 954 dps or 7.4% of their overall damage
95% Percentile Ninja - Trick Attack is worth 907 dps or 7.4% of their overall damage
90% Percentile Ninja - Trick Attack is worth 878 dps or 7.3% of their overall damage
75% Percentile Ninja - Trick Attack is worth 846 dps or 7.3% of their overall damage
50% Percentile Ninja - Trick Attack is worth 843 dps or 7.5% of their overall damage

The DPS value of trick attack is fairly flat across the range and within margin of error

Now this isnt perfect as it assumes that the performance across the group is equal but its enough for me to fairly confidently say that "We need higher rdps because we our dps are more group dependant" arguement is complete and utter fantasy.

Thats not to say that Ninja and some other DPS dont need an increase (they do) but this "buffing dps are harder to coordinate and play around" being reeled out in this thread is being based on feelings rather than math.

[Vendalwind]

snip

It is litterally not based on feelings. Every argument ive stated has been logic and math.

Every single fracking one.

Ive even said if nin lost trick that i would want drgs to have higher rdps than us. The nuff would need to be bigger to see more variation, and regardless it still holds true that buff utility have to bring more dps or their raid buff is pointless.

You also choose to intentionally omit 50th percentile below. Thats cherry picking and is in fact feely craft. And if you look sub 50 it will become clear that trick is variable with party skill.

And keep in mind raid dps is more rounded out when other buffers are in a group too.


Insteas of dismissing the idea because of your poor cherry picked fact above consider doing the following instead;

The bar for the transition to rdps lead on NIN is too small (ie its already stable is at 50th percentile) and needs to be made more sever. This could be done by shortening the time (ie use window) and amping its damage making timing more severe.

[Shiroe]

classes with buffs will always be more wanted in PFs, even if their rdps is (a bit) lower than selfish dps..., thats a reality (people still want buffs)

so what if sam and blm become part of a meta, 1st time for everthing..

and @ blm being easy, GL with Blm in e4s lol.. (even just e4n)

[Myon88]

People wanting buffs isn't a thing any more now that they're ranked on raid dps and not personal dps. And blm is actually pretty easy in e4s, especially everything from big titan onwards. You'll realize that soon enough if you're working on it now.