Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Kabooa]

Copy pastaing from another thread.

I see a fairly diverse amount of feedback from various players when it comes to Shadowbringers job direction, so my suggestion included a few other considerations Namely it tries to hit a few notes.

1. The RDPS>PDPS supporters
2. Not alienating the PDPS=RDPS jobs.
3. Re-emphasizing a burst window (Though not necessarily a 120s mystic alignment)
4. Minimizing the impact / tuning needed in the world at large (Since this would literally be for the benefit of Savage and Ultimate only)
5. Encourage party diversity (AKA not hard lock a comp)

In my opinion, the blurb from the previous page aims to accomplish all that.

This is going to be a lengthy one, and we'll be using some arbitrary number values to illustrate the concept.

Quick Primer: RDPS vs PDPS

RDPS or "Raid DPS": This is the baseline damage that the job brings to a group. This includes personal DPS and all DPS given by buffs and minus all DPS taken by buffs.
PDPS or "Personal DPS": This is the end amount of damage sourced from your character, including all buffs.

Defining "Out of the Box": I've been using this term, but basically this is raw RDPS the job does assuming a raid size of 1. Therefore, an 'out of the box' RDPS value of 12,000 with Ninja whose trick attack brings on average 2% bonus RDPS has a PDPS value of about 11,760. If Trick attack was an average RDPS increase of 10% (which is like, the same as having 5 dancers), then its PDPS is around 10,800.

To illustrate just how ridiculous that would be in practice, any job that increases the raid's total DPS by 10% would, at the suggested numbers to follow, have to have a PDPS of around 3,000.

A ton of gobblygook.

Let's use the first example first, with a balanced team of two tanks, two healers, and one of each type of dps (Melee, ranged, caster, cannon). We'll use tank = 7500, healer = 5500, and DPS = 12,000 'out of the box'. The total raw RDPS = 74,000.

We'll say each of the Melee, ranged, and casters are the same weight - on average, the support is worth about 2% more RDPS and it always lines up cuz magic. 74,000 * 1.02^3 = approximately 78,529. With a Cannon, you double that RDPS increase for them, netting an additional 749 DPS. 79,278.

Let's say instead of the cannon we add another melee. The same calculation is 74,000 * 1.02^4 = 80,099.

Not bad, it's pretty close.

A small differential, but with the additional role we have yet another tuning lever in the attribute bonus. Team 1 has all roles represented and Team 2 has not.

Lets apply a 1.08 (representing 8% attribute bonus) to team 1 and 1.05 to team 2.

Team 1: 85,620
Team 2: 84,103

What about a double cannon team?

Team 3: (74,000 * 1.02^2 + (24000 * 1.02^2 - 24,000) ) * 1.04 = 81,077

All of this assumes 100% performance by everyone involved. Supposedly SE tunes in unupgraded Tome Gear and slashes that maximum performance, but I can't say for certain. Titan is currently around 75,000 or so, so lets apply a "Casul tax" and slash our totals (We'll assume the presented numbers in this system are in i450 unmelded) by about 15%.

Team 1: 72,777
Team 2: 71,487
Team 3: 68,915

No week 1s for anyone. A fully pentamelded set (we'll use DH because it's easy) over a 0 meld set is an extra 2180 stat points. With DH, that's 36.33% direct hit chance or about 9.075% more damage. Pentamelded team looking like

Team1: 79.872
Team2: 78,456
Team3: 75,634

Week 1s for many people, though multiple cannon jobs are taking a nasty hit.

What if we applied the increased cannon buff to attribute bonus as well from the party system?

In Team 1 we see an increase from 14,578 to 15,658. Total gain 1,080.

In Team 3, we see an increase from 13,498 each to 14017. Total gain 519 each. Still rough for them.

What if the "Cannon buff" itself was a flat 3% rather than being a full house bonus?

In team 3, we see an increase from 13.498 each to 13,757. Even worse.

...Both?

13,498 to 14,536 each. Total increase of 2077.

Team 3 100% total: 83154
Team 3 casul tax total: 70,680
Team 3 pentameld: 77,572.

Summary

System Change
New Role: Cannon. Jobs in this role gain double the effect of party buffs and enemy vulnerabilities, and role attribute bonus.

"Normalized" RDPS and PDPS levels.

Team composition
Team 1 (2 tanks, 2 healers, 1 of each dps role)
Team 2(2 tanks, 2 healers, no cannons, 3 other roles covered)
Team 3(2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 cannons, two other roles covered)

Theoretical Maximum
Team 1: 86,700
Team 2: 84,103
Team 3: 83,154

'Minimum ilvl tune'
Team 1: 73,695
Team 2: 71,487
Team 3: 70,680

'Pentamelded'
Team 1: 80,880
Team 2: 78,456
Team 3: 77,572.

It's late, but you get the idea. These three team set ups cover a fair range of party compositions (though obviously not all), but as a parting note, it seems if we do the doubled attribute buff and cannons adding a flat +attribute bonus rather than being a full set bonus, the stat bonus could be reduced.

[Miralyth]

And you should re-read my post.

I re-read your post several times before I posted. I just had a difficult time following the way it was written. I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but some parts of it read like you were arguing with yourself to me. It may have just been that I was tired. Either way, I'm sorry for making you explain yourself again. I was just trying to understand, and between you and Taiyou, I understand what you were trying to say now. I mostly agree, although I don't put as much stock into difficulty mattering for payoff. I think if people enjoy difficulty, they should chase after it for that reason alone and not because they want to have superior results to others.

I'd rather see the game balanced as closely as possible so that all jobs are competitive and no two jobs are married to each other (e.g. DRG and BRD/MCH in the past).

As for people working around trick attack, the point of my example was that you literally cannot have a party of full selfish DPS right now. We don't have enough of them. You could replace the NIN in my example with a DRG or a MNK.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

Don't think they are OP at all tbh. Monk is a lot of effort so its dps feels perfectly justified to me. Same with other melee and BLM having to have good fight knowledge for positioning itself to cast. SMN could for sure do with some buffs/improvements to brings its dps up to match the effort it requires imo. Why would you wanna nerf classes people are currently enjoying? When it jus makes more people happy to see their own class get a couple buffs. I don't even understand why people attack other jobs either tbh when PvP isn't such a big thing in this game (and it's balanced differently anyway) . It's PvE and literally every class is viable. Advocate for changes to the job you are unhappy with by all means, I do it myself. Leave other classes people are pretty happy with alone. Close dps gap a little bit an all's Gucci so far as damage goes, some classes make sense having more damage. Fixing feel and fluidity of classes is another matter though.

[TaiyouSeishin]

I re-read your post several times before I posted. I just had a difficult time following the way it was written. I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but some parts of it read like you were arguing with yourself to me. It may have just been that I was tired. Either way, I'm sorry for making you explain yourself again. I was just trying to understand, and between you and Taiyou, I understand what you were trying to say now. I mostly agree, although I don't put as much stock into difficulty mattering for payoff. I think if people enjoy difficulty, they should chase after it for that reason alone and not because they want to have superior results to others.

I'd rather see the game balanced as closely as possible so that all jobs are competitive and no two jobs are married to each other (e.g. DRG and BRD/MCH in the past).

As for people working around trick attack, the point of my example was that you literally cannot have a party of full selfish DPS right now. We don't have enough of them. You could replace the NIN in my example with a DRG or a MNK.

He wasnt meaning difficulty of playing a class should have a pay off. If that was the case NIN and MNK would have been top (imo these two are some of the hardest, tho the last i played mnk was on a friends account in sb, but he didn't find it that difficult)

It was the "extra work" put in for a utility that should be rewarded. "Lets get a nij with trick attack in here, itll add difficulty and we will have less raid wide dps to boot" <-- not the kind of difficulty people want.

He was merely saying that dps-buffing utilities need to actually have a positive affect like they are meant to. And to achieve that, a pure pdps class should be REQUIRED to be present. Trick scales with higher pdps.

He also said that it should be a scaling skill ceiling. At lower levels of play (like pugs) the utility class is weaker. But as they work together more, utility should have a higher pay out, particularly with the higher pdpser working with them.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Don't think they are OP at all tbh. Monk is a lot of effort so its dps feels perfectly justified to me. Same with other melee and BLM having to have good fight knowledge for positioning itself to cast. SMN could for sure do with some buffs/improvements to brings its dps up to match the effort it requires imo. Why would you wanna nerf classes people are currently enjoying? When it jus makes more people happy to see their own class get a couple buffs. I don't even understand why people attack other jobs either tbh when PvP isn't such a big thing in this game (and it's balanced differently anyway) . It's PvE and literally every class is viable. Advocate for changes to the job you are unhappy with by all means, I do it myself. Leave other classes people are pretty happy with alone. Close dps gap a little bit an all's Gucci so far as damage goes, some classes make sense having more damage. Fixing feel and fluidity of classes is another matter though.

Was this post about pvp? *tilts head confused* coulda sworn it was generally pve.

Also, if mch was pulling 30k compared to what everyone is doing now, itll be ok because people enjoy it?

[TaiyouSeishin]

Also, if mch was pulling 30k compared to what everyone is doing now, itll be ok because people enjoy it?

This was in jest btw

[ksuyen]

Don't think they are OP at all tbh.

If they are not OP, then other DPS jobs are UP. It's same same different, six seven eight.

[ShaneDawn]

I am utterly baffled as to how people think certain jobs should both deal the most personal damage and raid damage. These jobs can perform up to their best capability in any setting as long as their ability to press their buttons is not compromised, whereas buffer type of jobs get significantly weaker in a lackluster environment with sub-par player/s.

If the buffer/rdps utility type of jobs provide less than pure dps type jobs at their best, then why even consider bringing them along in any setting at all? They would be just arguably worse in any and all settings whatsoever, provided that the party composition itself meets the base need of having enough mitigative tools and jobs capable of handling mechanics to survive the encounter. Ironically enough, the "utility" jobs no longer really grant a significant edge in terms of raid mitigation and survival tools when compared to top contenders contributing the highest personal dps either.

[Vendalwind]

I re-read your post several times before I posted. I just had a difficult time following the way it was written. I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but some parts of it read like you were arguing with yourself to me. It may have just been that I was tired. snip etc.

You aren't rude, I'm really bad at not rambling, and i wrote that mass from my phone which didn't help @_@

He wasnt meaning difficulty of playing a class should have a pay off. If that was the case NIN and MNK would have been top (imo these two are some of the hardest, tho the last i played mnk was on a friends account in sb, but he didn't find it that difficult)

It was the "extra work" put in for a utility that should be rewarded. "Lets get a nij with trick attack in here, itll add difficulty and we will have less raid wide dps to boot" <-- not the kind of difficulty people want.

He was merely saying that dps-buffing utilities need to actually have a positive affect like they are meant to. And to achieve that, a pure pdps class should be REQUIRED to be present. Trick scales with higher pdps.

He also said that it should be a scaling skill ceiling. At lower levels of play (like pugs) the utility class is weaker. But as they work together more, utility should have a higher pay out, particularly with the higher pdpser working with them.

That is exactly it. Why am i too wordy. Thanks Taiyou,

[Miralyth]

You aren't rude, I'm really bad at not rambling, and i wrote that mass from my phone which didn't help @_@

I don't think you're too wordy, and I'm glad you explained. I pretty much agree with what you wrote (especially the hope for a meta that is a mixed-type of DPS) and I'm glad you contributed.

As for keeping buff DPS ahead of personal DPS in rDPS, I can see the reasoning but the lead would have to be extremely slight, in so that taking an all buff DPS composition is an overall loss. This would mean that everyone's rDPS is extremely close, much closer than it is now.

CecMiller has written some of my favorite posts on this forum and I love most of his/her post a few posts back, but I disagree with above 70th percentile being where buffing DPS begin to overtake selfish DPS in rDPS. Here's the snippet in question:

However, at lower percentiles play, say 70th percentile and below, the pdps classes and rdps jobs should be on par. The exact level of play required to achieve higher rdps on these dps "utility" jobs should be high so as to keep say a good blm/mch/sam/sam/mnk competitive and not as big of a difference when played well when compared to, say, the current situation of BLM vs. RDM/SMN in the list.

I think it should be more around maybe 90th, so that speed run oriented groups are taking a mix of DPS types. A divergence beginning at 70th would likely end in selfish DPS being way too behind and entirely ignored at high levels of play as they were in the past. I really don't want to see another meta that's all buffing DPS or one that's dominated by selfish DPS. A split at 90th would have buff DPS pretty close to selfish DPS long before 90th, as the higher the percentile, the closer the numbers are to the previous percentile.

I also recognize that CecMiller was likely more focused on creating an example than actually committing to 70th percentile, and I don't mean this post to pick on his/her post. I think I just wanted to look more into this point.

Other thoughts:
- Some posters seem alarmed at the notion that people want selfish DPS above others in rDPS. I don't think this is necessarily true for a lot of people who are talking about this; I think what most people want is for rDPS to be pretty even, so that all jobs remain competitive to some degree and that spots become a lot harder for certain jobs to lock.

- I've seen some concern that people think the top 4 are fine. However, many people who say the top 4 are fine seem to be posting about bringing up the other 5. To me, it's either bring down the top 4 or bring up the bottom 5 and I'm personally okay with either. This particular point seems to bring a lot of controversy as though the two notions are incompatible, and I think it's causing a lot of unnecessary disagreement between posters.