Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Miralyth]

@Vendalwind

DPS who don't have raid buffs are very capable of teamwork: it's teamwork for them to take advantage of buff windows. I'm struggling to understand where your argument is coming from. An ideal meta would have some mixture of buff and non-buff DPS, and the various compositions would be so close that it would be a different meta for each fight. I might just not understand, but from how I'm reading your post, you want a meta constructed of entirely buff-giving DPS because it takes more teamwork (it doesn't) for them to synergize. The only exception to this would be a team created entirely from selfish DPS, which is currently impossible. Even if the composition is NIN/SAM/BLM/MCH, all 3 non-NIN have to make an effort to configure resources around trick attack for a faster kill.

[BarretOblivion]

@ rdps

if a class offers no other utility (mantra, rez, etc.), it should have higher rdps than classes that offer utility

if a class offers a "dps buff" (but no other utility), it should imo still have slight lower rdps than those that offer no buff (or utility), since those "buffing" classes are still very loved in parties (everyone likes to get buffed)

top rdps should be:
1) blm
2) sam (just very slightly under blm, since more physical buffs exist like embolden and brotherhood, sam can take advantage of more buffs
3) drg & nin
4) mch
5) smn (smn slight ahead of mnk, again cause of more physical buffs out there)
6) mnk
7) rdm & brd (maybe again rdm slightly ahead of brd? but rdm utility is very special)
8) dnc

Why is MCH? 4th? They provide no raid utitily outside of standard ranged party wide mitigation. At least MCH should be 3rd as Ninja/DRG bring fairly large raid wide damage increases overall.
Why is SMN 5? They have one of the longer cooldowns to provide raid wide dps increase.

You need to rework that top rdps:
1)Blm/SAM depending on uptime on the boss, more moving away from boss =BLM more uptime on boss = SAM
2) see 1)
3) MCH
4) MNK
5)SMN
6)DRG/NIN
7)RDM/BRD
8)DNC
And the disparity between the raid wide buff DPS need to be consolodated, but DRG should NOT be doing more than a ninja. They have a party buff as well as a single target buff on them, that's more than most other DPS in the game.

Lets be real here, all of SB and for the longest time Ninja/DRG have been staple melee DPS that you could never seem to ever want to remove for a MNK and during SB many parties didn't allow SAMs at all. The SB meta f'd over all the 'selfish DPS' because the raid wide party buffs/debuffs of utility far outwieghed the "selfish DPS" role to where you just stacked all of it until BLM finally got buffed to a high degree. The caster meta was then pretty healthy between SMN/BLM going at it but RDM got screwballed but not enough to segregate them away from groups.
SAM was still hard to be allowed in but MNKs were finally okay because their buff was still pretty good.

So now here we are, every group now seems to need a dps amp, where you need one of those selfish DPS to maximize the use of raid wide buffs, this should be the USE of the selfish DPS jobs. If they aren't this role, whats the point of them to begin with? Just stack damage buffs on the party like SB and what we have been doing since 2.0

[Lina_Slayer]

After clearing E3S I got to the conclusion that the most important thing right now for 5.08 (I'm assuming this is only a potency/number change with QoL/reworks being done on 5.1) is to put each and every DPS at like 500 rDPS from each other without caring about defensive utilities for now, this huge gap in DPS is really killing us PF plebs (I refuse to block jobs in my parties other than forcing 1+1+1+X for that sweet 1% and no dupes for LB), I'm playing BLM but I can easily see some of my clears would never be done with a "lesser" job even if I got an orange parse and it's not fair forcing some people to clear only with amazing play while others can get by being average...

[TaiyouSeishin]

@Vendalwind

DPS who don't have raid buffs are very capable of teamwork: it's teamwork for them to take advantage of buff windows. I'm struggling to understand where your argument is coming from. An ideal meta would have some mixture of buff and non-buff DPS, and the various compositions would be so close that it would be a different meta for each fight. I might just not understand, but from how I'm reading your post, you want a meta constructed of entirely buff-giving DPS because it takes more teamwork (it doesn't) for them to synergize. The only exception to this would be a team created entirely from selfish DPS, which is currently impossible. Even if the composition is NIN/SAM/BLM/MCH, all 3 non-NIN have to make an effort to configure resources around trick attack for a faster kill.

What he is trying to say is that NIN amd DRH jave no other utilities besides dps increasing ones.

He is also saying that in order for a NIN to reach maximum potential of rdps, a sam, blm, and mch should be present. Trick Attack scales higher the higher the pdps value. BLM will provide more rdps for NIN thsn SMN EVER will.

At max value, trick is showimg to give around 1000 rdps to the NIN as its contribution. If NIN even after accounting for this is still the lowest, why bring it? And im talking max value meaning with top pdps on the party, and it only gave around 1k. NIN is normally around 2k behind the next melee in pdps, which means trick is nullified.

[Shiroe]

the difference atm seem a bit big, but those are bit due to player skill and fight build up too

blm can have issues too, trying maintain uptime, or are forced to do more mechanics as ranged class

.. unless you look at the very highest parsers ( 90-100), sam and blm should be equal.., just sam can get more buffs (besides if a drg has to chose between a sam and blm eith equal dps, chain will go to the sam)

if there is no movemet / like on a dummy, blm should be top dps, even if only by a (very) small margin compared to sam (still Shoha can use a rework too)

l dont see why mnk (with utility, mantra) should have the same or higher rdps than drg and nin..

though mnk's dps buff is limited to physical buffs.., while nin and drg buff all

... so mnks rdps should only be slightly lower than that of drg / nin

though drg and nin were in the "meta" for so many expansions, they should still have less rdps than sam,.. but have a tick more than mnk

(overall the melee should all be very close, but sam top and mnk lowest;.. atm mnk beeing top of all dps is a bit wierd.., though since blm are learning the fight more and more, seems blm might be pulling ahead again,.. blm optimization is also learning the fight more and more.. and getting proc lucky on a run too)

[TaiyouSeishin]

... so mnks rdps should only be slightly lower than that of drg / nin

though drg and nin were in the "meta" for so many expansions, they should still have less rdps than sam,.. but have a tick more than mnk

(overall the melee should all be very close, but sam top and mnk lowest;.. atm mnk beeing top of all dps is a bit wierd.., though since blm are learning the fight more and more, seems blm might be pulling ahead again,.. blm optimization is also learning the fight more and more.. and getting proc lucky on a run too)

Im not sure if you are a bit confused about what rdps is. If you are not confused and know it, then you are asking SAM to be the meta melee that you double stack.

Buffed dps is now added to the total of the ones that provide the buff creating rdps. A ninja does a pdps of 10.5 plus 1k from trick (IF they have high pdps classes in the party synergizing with them) puts them at 11.5 rdps. If the next melee does a pdps of 12.5, a ninja is worthless by comparison. Note that 1k is a higher end value, when on average its more like 800 rdps.

SAM should be the highest PDPS of melee, because they are meant to synergize with dps buffs. Just the type of class brining the buff should change according to comp. If you are saying DRG and NIN should be lower than SAM on rdps, you are saying that drg and nin should be a penalty for a party taking them.

If you take a 2k dps loss for a utility that provides 1k, you see a raid wide dps loss of 1k.

[CecMiller]

I disagree heavily with the majority of "top" rdps lists here.

I think the top 3/4 jobs (BLM, DRG, MNK and SAM) are too far ahead in rdps contributions relative to the other jobs which are somewhat balanced. BLM stands out in particular as it is the only job in its role that fires ahead of both other casters. NIN is the weak link with regards to melee (and in my view the should be higher than DRG, MNK, SAM in terms of rdps slightly at the highest level) with SAM a bit further behind when compared to DRG and MNK. Ranged dps seem balanced, but I personally think DNC should be higher than BRD and then MCH last in RDPS at high levels (but notably similar at lower levels or pdps being better at low levels in general) of play whilst the reverse is true in adps order due to the reasons listed in the following quote:

I just wanted to touch upon the DPS capability of SMN in general as I don't think I talk about this too much.

Right now, both RDM and SMN are too low with respect to BLM. In fact, a lot of classes seem to be very close to each other but there are stand out jobs like DRG, MNK and BLM and SAM lagging slightly behind where as the others are a bit more closely matched. I'm certain SMN needs changes and with those changes, hopefully its DPS is brought up. But at the same time, the gap the top 3 (with SAM joining them if buffed) have over the other jobs is pretty mindboggling even when BLM is considered to be a purely DPS class, its ADPS should be higher but not its RDPS. RDPS ideally should be equal with a slight preferrence to utility classes. This is because they require good execution from everyone in the party to utilize their kit in these buff windows. Furthermore, the jobs with these utilities are always weaker in content that is solo or 4 man or anything less than 8 man content where as the "pure dps" jobs are always stronger in these areas. When these tools are not utilized optimally, their rdps would be lower and as such, when used at their maximum benefit, they should eclipse those "pure dps" jobs in terms of raid dps contribution via their own personal dps + the dps their utility has provided.

I would also note that ressurection does not provide ANY dps utility at a high level. However, their benefit is clear in pug groups when deaths are more common. The current state of balance is significantly worse than patch 4.5. If both RDM and SMN are being taxed for ressurection, then its better off removed entirely from both jobs as it creates an unequal balancing environment - I would personally already prefer this.

An example of patch 4.5 with the fastest speedkill in Final Omega:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/x6ajk...pe=damage-done

SMN had contagion here (10% Magic Debuff every 60s for 15s). However it hits only 4 people: BLM, AST, SCH and PLD (If holy spirits are aligned) in this group (discounting the SMN as its contribution to their DPS is part of their personal DPS). Further, devotion was 2% as opposed to 5% so its contribution was a lot lower.

Evyerthing considered, the gap was certainly not made up by these buffs alone (almost 1.6k dps) and I very much think they would be very close but I cannot see that anymore as the website I used has been discontinued. Discounting the buffs from BRD, DRG, AST (BLM got 2 extra balances), SCH from both jobs personal dps and adding contagion and devotion to SMN would certainly mean their raid dps contribution was a lot closer.

Monk provided both mantra and brotherhood which is an incredibly strong buff on a low cooldown and physical only for whatever reason when there no longer exists magical buffs. Dragoon provides both crazy personal dps and battle litany and dragon sight.

Where I'm going with this is that SMN should have a similar placing to Monk if not higher when everything is balanced. Previously, the rankings in 4.5 would go BLM, SAM, MNK/SMN interchangeable and I think this was a good spot. Right now, it should go BLM, SAM, MCH, MNK/SMN, DRG/RDM/BRD, NIN/DNC in terms of personal dps contribution. However, I don't think this is close to being true at the moment - DRG's placement is the only one I'm actually unsure about.

RDPS lists should be much closer but it goes without saying that the jobs closer to the bottom in terms of personal dps should be higher on this list due to my reasons above. It is also worth noting that I only believe these difference should be evident at the very highest levels of play. The lower the level of play, the worse utility jobs should arguably be and the stronger pure dps jobs should be. I.e. NIN/DNC, DRG/BRD/RDM, MNK/SMN etc The problem then arrises in the dps discrepency between MCH, BLM and SAM where MCH would be lower in rdps purely because it is mobile. Its worth acknowledging that hard casting is harder than being mobile. As a result, the top percentiles should see this difference and hopefully its more balanced when player skill is a bit worse. We should ideally only see these rankings at the top level. To those that think that pure dps jobs should be at the top of both lists - what would be the point of bringing jobs that provide dps utility on top of their personal dps in that case? If DPS utility cannot provide adequate enough of a dps gain to reach similar dps levels of RDPS of pure dps classes at low levels of play and higher at higher level of play, why should they suffer penalties in any content that is less than 8 man where they do MUCH less dps and their utility counts for less? Further, this is a team game and its my personal belief that well-used buff windows over a range of classes should generate the "fastest" speed kills. That is why there needs to be this difference in raid dps contribution where the jobs with dps utility are stronger than the pure dps jobs at the highest level.

I think the top RDPS lists at the highest percentiles should always be the jobs that buff the most as they require good execution from party play under buffs.

Breaking the DPS down into tiers aka pure dps all in one tier etc with regards to personal dps, rankings for ADPS should be like this (They currently aren't):
1. BLM/SAM/MCH
2. MNK/SMN (I think SMN should be here)
3. BRD/DRG/RDM
4. NIN/DNC

Then the reverse of this should be true at the highest level for RDPS.

In this way the rankings should be:
1. NIN/DNC
2. RDM/DRG/BRD
3. MNK/SMN
4. BLM/MCH/SAM.

However, at lower percentiles play, say 70th percentile and below, the pdps classes and rdps jobs should be on par. The exact level of play required to achieve higher rdps on these dps "utility" jobs should be high so as to keep say a good blm/mch/sam/sam/mnk competitive and not as big of a difference when played well when compared to, say, the current situation of BLM vs. RDM/SMN in the list. Its true that the community DID tend to gravitate towards buffing comps. However, with the change to a certain external website, the focus is now on good "RDPS" who's comps are a lot more varied if any attempts to "pad" their own damage was to occur.

I really dont think top PDPS jobs should be top for rdps as they perform the best regardless of comp and in all content that isn't 8 man where as those that provide said "utility" are weaker in these areas. The idea that PDPS shouldn't be top RDPS isn't doom and gloom for them under the structure I have laid out and they would still be top dps even when party buffs are taken into consideration.

The current situation is not good. Ranged DPS collectively sit in an awkward spot where the possibility of another Melee DPS instead of a Ranged being optimal isn't so far fetched at the highest level.

[NovaBismarck]

Forgive me if I sound elitist, but...

You're playing Red Mage in a very suboptimal way if you're "constantly watching the party to make sure no one is going down." You're not a healer, it's not your job. Vercure isn't an off-global cooldown that otherwise costs nothing to cast; casting vercure costs anywhere between 305.44 to 421.64 potency because in the moments you're casting Vercure, you're not casting a damage spell. By stretching to try to handle the healer's job for them, you're actively working against your own job of doing damage. Vercure's best use right now is to get a dualcast ready for when the boss returns from downtime.

For the sake of argument though, let's say we do count it as utility. Well, RDM still shouldn't be taxed for having it, simply because using it comes with a tax. A tax of 306 to 422 potency. It's a stretch to say RDM should be double taxed for Verraise, but it's absolutely beyond the pale to suggest they should be double taxed for Vercure.

Sure, I will be happy to reply. I get where you are coming from. I'm not a rdm main, but I do have it leveled to 80. Given no red mage should have to be watching the party in savage, everyone is expected to do their job at any given time. Savage and casual are different animals entirely. I main smn, my husband rdm. We play casual content. People die a lot in casual raids. A LOT. Often if you don't pick up the slack for healers it will be a wipe. I know this maining smn because ideally I should only have to raise every 60 seconds with swiftcast and often people are dying more often than every 60 sec. The only time I step outside of that on smn is if 2 healers go down or a dps is down and a dps check is about to come up.

Overall, my numbers were very respectable before Shadowbringers did what they did to smn. My method of constantly keeping an eye on party hasn't hurt me so far, at least for my playstyle. I keep the party window in the same field of vision as the screen so I can see both at the same time.

I don't think rdm or smn should be taxed at all for rez honestly. It's a dps loss. I think they should count it as a wash and go on. Any smn or rdm mains who think it should count against us? I doubt it. We all know how annoying it is. I'm not for removing it, it's too useful in casual content. I do think they should balance the numbers based on embolden and devotion. Vercure and phx regen are so situationally useful, but more often not. However, our numbers definitely feel too low. Low enough that many of us who'd faithfully played a certain class for years feel like we might seek out greener pastures.

Honestly, it feels like SE put more emphasis on Shadowbringers and less on the rotations and dps. Maybe they figured they'd rebalance after? Whoever did NIN and SMN rotations didn't do a good job. They definitely dropped the ball on balance and a couple jobs rotations.

[Vendalwind]

@Vendalwind

DPS who don't have raid buffs are very capable of teamwork: it's teamwork for them to take advantage of buff windows. I'm struggling to understand where your argument is coming from. An ideal meta would have some mixture of buff and non-buff DPS, and the various compositions would be so close that it would be a different meta for each fight. I might just not understand, but from how I'm reading your post, you want a meta constructed of entirely buff-giving DPS because it takes more teamwork (it doesn't) for them to synergize. The only exception to this would be a team created entirely from selfish DPS, which is currently impossible. Even if the composition is NIN/SAM/BLM/MCH, all 3 non-NIN have to make an effort to configure resources around trick attack for a faster kill.

Sphere of influence love. Yeah the whole team has to work around trick, but they wouldnt have to if it wasnt there. The nin brings yhe trick and thus brings inherent difficulty. What i posed is how you make the ideal meta.

When you break things down quite simply what i propose is how you get that ideal meta where numbers are close and different classes will excell at slightly different fights, but otherwise be similar in output.

If pure dps are ahead always in rdps there will always be a no utility manner. The state of the game right now is not that because of mnk and drg who are crazy strong. But caster slot is definately given to the pure dps right now blm. Sam is too weak right now compared to mnk drg, but still strong compared to the current cast.

So when i talk about ideal, its not with respect to current balancing, its with respect to just optimal play regardless. Rdps utility classes make other people play harder as you said. Therefore by that metric alone they need to be capable of exceeding a pure dps situation or they are nothing but extra baggage.

And you should re-read my post. The meta in my theoretical hopes could never be all buff giving classes, the meta situation i tried to describe is where you want effectivly: 2 raid buff 2 pure dps: or 1 raid buff 2 pure 1 special utility, or 2 raid 1 pure 1 special utility and all three comp styles are capable of cleaeing all content.

The big point is if pure dps have best potential rdps (remember rdps subtracts what they are given from buffers) then there is no reason to being any buffer classes at all and the game would degenerate 2 sams 1 blm 1 mch with no alternative comp at all.

[Vendalwind]

Thing is rdps classes having the best potential contribution, well thats cause their contribution that makes them excell is team coordination. Blm and sam effectly own part of that big number on the NIN rdps log cause without them it wouldnt be obtainable.