Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Miralyth]

I just wanted to contribute my opinion:

Melee:
NIN: I'd like to see some potency buffs; I think the devs have been too heavy-handed around trick attack
DRG: a very small potency nerf or two
MNK: I think it needs potency nerfs to be brought more in-line with DRG
SAM: should be buffed to do around the same dps as BLM

Caster:
BLM: I think it's fine where it is
RDM: needs a buff, I get that verraise is great and all, but I don't think it should be more than 6-7% behind BLM
SMN: similar to RDM, but it's slightly less utility-oriented and I think should be closer to 4-5% behind BLM

Ranged:
BRD: I think it needs a utility (rDPS) improvement, and not at the cost of any damage; there's no reason it should be more than 2-3% behind DRG
DNC: similar to NIN, I think it needs a buff but only in the personal damage department
MCH: needs a potency buff, it should be just behind SAM & BLM

Other thoughts/additional comments:
- When I mention damage percentages, I mean in a typical raid setting, not on the dummy
- I don't think job difficulty should matter at all when balancing

[Miminming]

I love it, overall similar opinion with you

[Shiroe]

@ rdps

if a class offers no other utility (mantra, rez, etc.), it should have higher rdps than classes that offer utility

if a class offers a "dps buff" (but no other utility), it should imo still have slight lower rdps than those that offer no buff (or utility), since those "buffing" classes are still very loved in parties (everyone likes to get buffed)

top rdps should be:
1) blm
2) sam (just very slightly under blm, since more physical buffs exist like embolden and brotherhood, sam can take advantage of more buffs
3) drg & nin
4) mch
5) smn (smn slight ahead of mnk, again cause of more physical buffs out there)
6) mnk
7) rdm & brd (maybe again rdm slightly ahead of brd? but rdm utility is very special)
8) dnc

[Shiroe]

@ rdps

if a class offers no other utility (mantra, rez, etc.), it should have higher rdps than classes that offer utility

if a class offers a "dps buff" (but no other utility), it should imo still have slight lower rdps than those that offer no buff (or utility), since those "buffing" classes are still very loved in parties (everyone likes to get buffed)

top rdps should be:
1) blm
2) sam (just very slightly under blm, since more physical buffs exist like embolden and brotherhood, sam can take advantage of more buffs
3) drg & nin
4) mch
5) smn (smn slight ahead of mnk, again cause of more physical buffs out there)
6) mnk
7) rdm & brd (maybe again rdm slightly ahead of brd? but rdm utility is very special)
8) dnc

ok, looking at smn overall utility, smn should probably be equally strong as mnk, even if more physical buffs exist..

so smn and mnk shsre the 5th spot

[Lastelli]

if a class offers a "dps buff" (but no other utility), it should imo still have slight lower rdps than those that offer no buff (or utility), since those "buffing" classes are still very loved in parties (everyone likes to get buffed)

That's not how it works...not anymore, thankfully, as dps padding is now completely useless considering the new ranking criteria on fflogs.
Also, I feel like there's a need to reming everyone that dps is king is this game. Any defensive utility is useful as long as it allows healers to dps more or to avoid death (when content is new and players are undergeared). As such, the "utility tax" should be extremely low: ranged jobs are a good example of "reasonable" balance, with DNC being a tiny bit lower than the other 2 since it provides a little more utility in the form of curing waltz.

[Shiroe]

in reality, players still like and want paddig..

(probably also, so atleast their adps looks good)

[Shiroe]

edit:

top rdps should be:
1) blm
2) sam (just very slightly under blm, since more physical buffs exist like embolden and brotherhood, sam can take advantage of more buffs
3) drg & nin (they offer no utility.. just dps buffs)
4) mch (just a utility)
5) mnk & smn (both offer buffs and utility; even if there are more physical buffs out there, smn has good utility)
6) rdm & brd (offer stronger utility and buffs)
7) dnc

this is just an order of top to bottom rdps.., gaps should not be to big

even if utility is often best during prog.., classes with utility should still not have higher rdps than those with none (by small but noticable margins)

[Miralyth]

@Shiroe

The only utility MCH has is tactician (5% damage reduction on the party, 15s duration, 180s cooldown). All aiming jobs have some form of this, and it's unique in that it can be applied to all types of damage. However, SAM (as all melee do) has feint (lowers target's STR/DEX by 10%, 10s duration, 90s cooldown) and BLM (as all casters do) has addle (lowers INT/MND by 10%, 10s duration, 90s cooldown).

Feint can be applied to most tank busters (which are usually physical), and addle can be applied to most AoE damage (which is usually magical) in Savage. There are some exceptions, of course. The point is that the utility is pretty similar to MCH's tactician, perhaps even more useful as it is available twice as often. There is no reason to place MCH that much lower than SAM and BLM. I only personally placed it slightly behind SAM & BLM because there is a very small advantage to not being challenged by movement in modern Savage.

I think a lot of players still see MCH as it was in the past, where it had some ability to buff the party's damage and had access to utility like palisade. This is no longer the case. The job is very similarly "selfish" to BLM & SAM.

[Vendalwind]

edit:

Snip

No no and no. Logically think about what having pure dps classes as the best rdps classes would mean. It would mean they were the top pick by far.

Ive argued so many times about this. Pure dps vs dps ( with only utility dps buffs) the utility dps NEEEEEEEDS more potential rdps than the pure or utility dps is without value.

Ive mathematically broken down ideal distribution of dmg and why it matters too In other posts and linked earlier in this thread.

Raid dps (dps with only dmg utility) should have better total rdps at higher team skill coordination lvl. Pure dps are entirely self rraliant and can perform perfectly independend of team effort and therefore should not be the best in a TEAM BASED GAME. This is because a raid dps neeeeeeds the pure dps to reach its potential AND requires more team difficulty to play properly. A pure dps is self reliant and discourages cooperation. If a pure dps can outplay a raid dps even at the highest level then there is absolutely no reason to bring a raid dps. Please see my other posts with links and numbers about this.

Drg should be best 50th to 75th percentile.
Nin should be best 75th up lowest pdps even then.
Mnk should be ever so slightly lesser than drg for its odd mantra.
Sam should be the best 0 to 50th percentile always highest pdps.

Sam will still be valued tho because sam needs to be in party for any of the other three to hit their top value. Mnk drg and nin should be scaled in a way that they cannot reach their top rdps contribution without SAM ie SAM pdps needs to be the highest

Blm SMN and Rdm are odd cause of raise. They need to be more inline and something needs to be done about raise.

Ranged could debatably use a mild buff all around. And dnc needs to be buffed a little (only a little cause devilment scaling later will get crazy) and made less randon. Brd needs some of its utility back.

Even in the circumstance i describe above BLM and SAM will be the most common picks. Because the raid dps needs them both to contribute the most from their own utility. The meta would become SAM BLM a ranged and 1 mnk/nin/drg. With each ranged and each raid melee more valuable depending on the skill lvl of the group. Smns and rdms brought in for groups that have harder time with deaths.

This should point out that even if raid dps classes were stronger in raid pure classes would still have the highest meta comp value, which illuminated how grevious blm and sam being on top would screw things up. Not too mention if raid dps classes are that bad in 8 mans it means they are even worse in 4 man content.

Raid dps classes need to have th3 biggest potential or the meta will always completely exclude them. Last cycle nins were special not because of trick (which was overvalued) but because of the options shadewalker and smokewcreen opened up.

[Vendalwind]

I do play nin so lets get that outta the way. If nins trick were removed i would still want what i said to be true, ie nin would then need to have less potential rdps than mnk and drg but have as good pdps as SAM such a Nin or Sam partnered with a Monk or Drg would yield the best output.