(ShB Spoilers) Didn't Hydaelyn, uh...

[Kokomi]

"Ascian" is the name use to describe the Ancient that were tempered by Zodiark. As of yet, we don't know if Zodiark tempered all Ancients, and if so, it would make the summoning of Hydelyn really curious since tempered souls devote their life for their primal. We also don't know if tempering cease at dead, if it persists once the soul return to the life stream.

That makes sense, thanks for correcting me on the terms. Don't really have much else to add. We're going to win against the Ascians anyway so no point in kicking a horse that's almost dead.

[QT_Melon]

When it happens again, they wouldn't be able to solve their own problems. Again. And their civilization will collapse. Again.

Moral relativism. Civilizations that completely destroyed themselves from their own conflict are worse then civilizations that have endured multiple conflicts.

Convenient logic/hand waving

Their conflicts were not on the scale of the one that destroyed them. Per Selch he said they did have disagreements but learned to get around them not have full scale wars - at least from the peak of their existence (since we aren't sure if there was an evolutionary path - I'd think there would have been). This was the first one that ended up destroying them.

The ideas used to say how terrible their society is reminds me of the patriotism type of logic people use to admonish other countries, so it's no different.

That doesn't mean I believe that their society is perfect, my point is no society is and eventually falls/changes drastically.

As far as the analogy to animals, there is something in that because people don't understand animal intelligence or morality (which animals have demonstrated they do have morality). I'd think if anything the comparison is more like how people have ableist views towards others because of disabilities. Not having a complete soul does seem like someone looking at a friend they knew was a track star, that is recovering from a coma/devastating sports injury.

Then you have cultural differences along with being tempered by your own creation. I can't imagine it being easy to accept, and a lot of people on the forum kinda "oh well" it and not really ponder upon it - only in the most coldest of senses to make oneself "feel better" or justified in the camp they're sitting in. Not experiencing it in a real life kind of fashion makes it easier to distance one from the dilemma in a more empathic fashion.

Emotional level I think being stripped from everything you knew is a very devastating thing, if anyone has watched the documentary Blackfish - where killer whales were captured and thrown into a different environment with other whales of varying culture I can see why erratic or mental behavior occurred.

That being said there is still disgust for the destruction of beings to have the past back, especially if there is no guarantee that you'd get everything you wanted back. That is very likely a side effect of being tempered, but not sure if Zodiark being split has stronger control of those tempered despite being sundered?

[Edax]

Convenient logic/hand waving

Their conflicts were not on the scale of the one that destroyed them. Per Selch he said they did have disagreements but learned to get around them not have full scale wars - at least from the peak of their existence (since we aren't sure if there was an evolutionary path - I'd think there would have been). This was the first one that ended up destroying them.

The ideas used to say how terrible their society is reminds me of the patriotism type of logic people use to admonish other countries, so it's no different.

That doesn't mean I believe that their society is perfect, my point is no society is and eventually falls/changes drastically.

As far as the analogy to animals, there is something in that because people don't understand animal intelligence or morality (which animals have demonstrated they do have morality). I'd think if anything the comparison is more like how people have ableist views towards others because of disabilities. Not having a complete soul does seem like someone looking at a friend they knew was a track star, that is recovering from a coma/devastating sports injury.

Then you have cultural differences along with being tempered by your own creation. I can't imagine it being easy to accept, and a lot of people on the forum kinda "oh well" it and not really ponder upon it - only in the most coldest of senses to make oneself "feel better" or justified in the camp they're sitting in. Not experiencing it in a real life kind of fashion makes it easier to distance one from the dilemma in a more empathic fashion.

Emotional level I think being stripped from everything you knew is a very devastating thing, if anyone has watched the documentary Blackfish - where killer whales were captured and thrown into a different environment with other whales of varying culture I can see why erratic or mental behavior occurred.

That being said there is still disgust for the destruction of beings to have the past back, especially if there is no guarantee that you'd get everything you wanted back. That is very likely a side effect of being tempered, but not sure if Zodiark being split has stronger control of those tempered despite being sundered?

Inherently it's very difficult to argue for the superiority of a civilization that has already destroyed itself. This is why I was never sold on Emet's praise of Amaurot. The Ancients didn't deserve what happened to them, but neither did humanity deserve what Emet-Selch planned to do to it either.

[QT_Melon]

Inherently it's very difficult to argue for the superiority of a civilization that has already destroyed itself. This is why I was never sold on Emet's praise of Amaurot. The Ancients didn't deserve what happened to them, but neither did humanity deserve what Emet-Selch planned to do to it either.

To an extent neither did the new life deserved what was done during Sundering either if that choice was not their own.

[Kokomi]

When it comes down to it Emet was doing the things he was doing because he thought it was for the greater good (unlike Laha or Elidibus who seem more just like Zodiark fanatics). Usually when villains are set up this way we can clearly see that this is not actually the case and they are delusional, but it's a little more questionable here due to our lack of knowledge on what really happened.

Regardless of that, his lack of empathy for the new races is unexcusable. If Amaurot really was closer to a utopia than a dystopia, I doubt that he held these kinds of views initially, and I wonder how much of it is due to everything he went through vs. tempering by Zodiark.

[DPZ2]

The points I found interesting to ponder in all of this:

We learn that half of the Ancient population sacrificed themselves to summon Zodiark.

We learn that half of the remaining Ancient population sacrificed themselves because <something something> Zodiark.

We do not learn that such sacrifices wouldn't be required in the future.

We do learn that Emet-Selch believes that a rejoining will mean the total recall of all of those who sacrificed themselves. WHO gave him that idea? Where is the external validation for that idea outside his own headspace?

[QT_Melon]

It's not "something something" Zodiark.
It was that the planet's calamity was stopped but needed the ability to house life to be restored.
Then we get to "something something" Zodiark when it came to restoring the lives sacrificed.

[Kokomi]

The points I found interesting to ponder in all of this:

We learn that half of the Ancient population sacrificed themselves to summon Zodiark.

We learn that half of the remaining Ancient population sacrificed themselves because <something something> Zodiark.

We do not learn that such sacrifices wouldn't be required in the future.

We do learn that Emet-Selch believes that a rejoining will mean the total recall of all of those who sacrificed themselves. WHO gave him that idea? Where is the external validation for that idea outside his own headspace?

I would rewatch the cutscene where we speak with Hythlodaeus as that's where it's explained. The second round of sacrifices was to restore life to the planet which had be devastated after the calamity. Then the Council of Thirteen came up with a plan to sacrifice a portion of that life to Zodiark to get back the lives of the Ancients who had sacrificed themselves to summon him.

What we don't know:
1) What kind of life was going to be sacrificed to Zodiark to resurrect the Ancients.
2) How the Council knew, if they did, that this plan would work at all.
3) What specific reasons led the dissenters to summon Hydaelyn and Sunder everyone except Emet/Laha/Elidibus.

Emet is still carrying out this same plan thousands of years later, except before he can sacrifice the lives on the Source he needs to rejoin the shards. But yes you're right, per 2, we don't know what gave the Council the idea that such a sacrifice would work at all.

[Deusteele]

I'd put down good odds that the life they were going to sacrifice was the kind that has the best aetheric capacity barring Ancients. See there is one thing that neither Emet or anyone else mentions. How long they waited to put the sacrifice plan into action. It very well may have taken a very long time to cultivate enough aether to offer up to Zodiark. Long enough for the races we call the spoken to develop. I highly doubt that the 14th and their followers were over concerned about bees and trees being feed to Zodiark.

They most likely got the idea from Zodiark himself. We know that primals can speak and reason within a limited sphere of relevancy to their goals. He was created to restore the world and bringing back the Ancients lost during the End of Days would be well within his sphere.

[Kokomi]

snip

Yeah, evidence points toward the current races having been created by Zodiark since we know they exist on the First as well as the Source. Everything you said could be true but we really have no idea how the cultivating + sacrifice would actually work (If Zodiark created the lifestream, it has a finite amount of aether, where is it getting more from? Why would Zodiark need a living sacrifice as opposed to just pulling extra aether out of the lifestream?).

On top of that, intentionally or not, Hydaelyn via Sundering did something equally as bad: she killed everyone on the Source except three unsundered Ascians, the only difference is that the aether went back into the lifestream or became fragmented souls instead of going into Zodiark.