Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[AikenDrum]

Suppose I'd ask you if 7 seconds is an adequate trade.

You do realize that in one of your e2s clears if you were to be replaced with rdm of same performance the total raid dps would be lower than 71k resulting in a wipe, and in another one it would only be 135dps above 71k?

Seeing as people are more likely hitting 75-76k

Those people are blm, mnk and drg btw

[Miminming]

Given the current need caster to raise = wipe savage raiding why bother with raise... SMN and RDM is paying an overrated unused tax

[kajv95]

I'm not a guaranteed raid spot because I play Black Mage.

Lets get that straight and clear out of the way - Bard. I know it's hard having to give up your guaranteed raid spot of 6+ years.

(See? That doesn't help either of us does it?)

No, my situation in Stormblood wasn't exaggerated. I was literally kicked from groups because I was a Black Mage. I was -never- kicked from a group as a Machinist, even though they were considered -vastly inferior- to Bard until Alphascape, in which case they were only considered somewhat inferior.

And I'm a far worse Machinist than I was a Black Mage.

I'm speaking as someone who has been locked out, retroactively removed ("Whoops, kept Black mage open"), and, from a pure analytical perspective, realized that Black Mage was horrendously weak compared to other potential options in Deltascape. As someone who has played the job since starting in 2.0 and enjoyed the constraints placed upon it, that's rather annoying.

I will concede that it was not -only- Raise that lead to the public opinion. As with anything, there are multiple factors to consider. However, even accounting for those, damage itself is bottom line, and if the Black Mage still brought more, it didn't bring enough to warrant not also bringing a Raise.

600 DPS sounds like a lot, until you consider that at current levels that equates to maybe 3 seconds off a kill time.

3 seconds.

Off a kill time.

For giving up a safety net.

I wouldn't take that trade.

(And neither did most world race teams.)

Black Mage isn't overpowered. You can make the argument for Monk, you can maybe make the argument for Dragoon (If anything, it's a good baseline for all the melee to look at), but you can't make it for Black Mage.

Ah, yeah, the deflection of "you're a bard so you can't know what it's like!!"

News flash, you've never seen me argue that dancer would've been overpowered despite being a bard and basically taking my job design away. You didn't see me argue that I was scared of losing my guaranteed raid position, I am fully aware that my raid position is by technicality of Machinist being problematic in implementation. Yes, those things that happened during Deltascape suck, but you're arguing that should happen for atleast 5 jobs simply so it doesn't happen for black mage. The problem at that time was that Black Mage was underpowered in comparison, not that Summoner was overpowered, and let's keep red mage out of the equation for just that second but feel free to hold that thought.

600 dps is fair, 3 seconds killtime faster is fair. You are VASTLY overrating Raise based on prior experiences that aren't even fully dependent on having it. Don't forget there are two healers that can save swiftcast for this entire reason - and at the point where a summoner or red mage has to step in to raise, that's usually enough deaths to warrant a reset, because dps checks are tighter than they were at the time. That safety net of yours does not even properly exist right now, unless the job in question brings 2 meta jobs in the same party right now, and even then it's tight.That's not having options, that's having just telling these other people they should feel bad because they have a raise. See, if weakness debuffs didn't exist, I would gladly argue that you are right on this, but it does exist so the penalty is there, and by the time the RDM NEEDS to raise, that penalty is far too apparent while they already have to take care of the lower dps placed on their job AND lose a gcd to do it. SMN at the time was preferred because it was better than BLM, and had Contagion so during those windows, if someone died, the summoner could easily take care of it while the healers could still take all that increased damage. It's a very, very clear difference, and consistently bringing up Deltascape STILL makes me wonder why you're defending this. "It doesn't happen to my job, so it's fine now" is a bad stance to take.

Do I really have to sit here and explain the concept of how seconds matters far more than one would initially believe when it's 1 dps bringing those seconds on their own? Since you enjoyed bringing my class into it, those 3 seconds are on average about 4 skills or abilities pressed.

I can definitely make the argument for Monk and Dragoon, and I can make it for Black Mage too. There is no more oversaturation on job synergy, and it's far safer to have everything huddled up together much more closely. Those seconds are a safe niche for BLMs to have, and I believe that they should stand above the rest like that. But as it is right now, Black Mage, Monk and Dragoon are ALL comparatively overpowered.

[Eliadil]

Tbh, I wouldn't care less if SMN and RDM kept Raise. The mp tax as well as the dps loss for casting it is already a bother.
You know what would be amazing tho and would solve a lot of issues ? Giving some more offensive buffs to RDM and SMN.

Right now peoples want to do damage, because "black mage's doing wayyyy to much, so it must be mandatory". But being a Black Mage with Embolden or with demi-primals won't solve the issues at all, in fact it will just shove away BLM from being a worthwhile pick in a group, because the damage brought by BLM isn't nearly enough to compete with the utility brought by SMN/RDM.

I mean guys, look at DRG and SAM. Do you know why peoples prefer a Dragoon than a Samurai right now ? Even if the Samurai can do just a tiny bit more dps ? Because DRG has raid buffs, enough in fact to completely overpower a Samurai which has nothing to bring except not enough raw dps.

The issue can be seen in another way with Ninja, who has an amazing raid buff but still doesn't do any damage at all. In fact he's so bad that his damage isn't worth taking even though he has by far one of the greatest utility among every dps.

So instead of arguing why peoples should nerf BLM or buff every class's damage onto BLM level, let's just all agree on the fact that some lower tier class must get a bit of a pDPS boost (Looking at you Ninja), while some other would benefit way more of having an actual offensive buff that's worth taking (and would be enough to warrant doing less than a Black Mage).

I recall having said that somewhere else, but overall, no matter what comp you pick, the total damage dealt by your group should be roughly the same. However that doesn't mean that every class should deal the same amount of damage. Damage will be spread out differently across your team depending on job composition...

But in order to do that, we must propell upward some class that do need more damage to be viable in the first place (and not be taken over by Dragoon or Monk because they're better no matter what) AS WELL AS giving more offensive and party buff to class that aren't at the top of the dps spectrum. The goal isn't to have a Stormblood pf again, where peoples were kicking a class just because it didn't bring enough.

[Dortharl]

After going through this thread, I genuinely hope SE do not take this forum into account when making decisions, the amount of hyperbole, misinformation and made up stats is mind boggling. I can see why this game is loosing so many of the features that made it unique.

[Cetonis]

General reminder to all reading that we're talking rDPS here, as in the total sum of raid contribution, now measured capably by fflogs so we don't even have to estimate it by plugging runs into xivrdps anymore. "More personal but damage buffs" arguments are vastly outdated, we really don't need to parse that out in the broad sense anymore. It's only relevant around the edges where you get into scaling with party coordination and such.

This same fight has an RDPS requirement of around 71,000 I believe (It might be higher or lower, just lowballing. This means an extra 1000 DPS results in a quicker clear by about 1.5%, or putting that into easier to digest chunks, about 9-10 seconds faster on the kill. Seeing as people are more likely hitting 75-76k, it's probably closer to 7 seconds faster kill time.

Suppose I'd ask you if 7 seconds is an adequate trade.

Ignoring debating the fine details of your numbers, of course 7 seconds is an adequate trade. 5 seconds is an adequate trade. Heck, so is 2.

The meta comp is purely a matter of what collection of jobs can kill fights the fastest. That's it. If BLM brings more than the other casters, it is now meta, and meta jobs are never shunned.

Which isn't to say SE should try and balance 100% towards the meta, but it's clearly the starting point for people when discussing job balance. Any meta or meta-adjacent job is going to be fine in the eyes of the community.

Making it so non-meta jobs simply don't exist is an impossible goal, but you can get things close enough that people looking at the numbers aren't going to go "oof, my favorite job is terribad", close enough that regular statics and PFs won't wonder if they should restrict themselves to the better jobs to improve their chances.

My static's caster got the i475 RDM weapon this week. He's still playing BLM, even though he's better at RDM, because the divide is so gaping that not even weapon + playing better can bridge it. His favorite job / actual main is SMN, but rip. And this is very common right now, not even because groups are bullying their casters, but because people naturally don't want to feel like they're dragging the group down.

[Aiscence]

People have to understand that ranged tax shouldn't be a thing, because at high level, uptime is the same: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...35/unknown.png (I let the tank/healer to show that even them have nearly perfect uptime). Having to play machinist, keeping 47CPM (highest of any job) without drifting, while doing all the mechanics to let casters not move/melee next to the boss, but still having a "ranged tax" that means whatever we do, our "selfish dps" cant even come close to dps with raid buffs, is not motivating to play well at all. Ranged have the lowest MagRes too, meaning we are the first to die if the healers arent the highest quality.

And if you want some example on why it's not rewarding: a 95+ machinist on e2s is a green mnk, e3s: gray monk, e4s: gray monk. Very high selfish dps.

Caster wise, Smn/Rdm dps shouldn't be reduced because they are bringing a rez either, rezzing in itself should be the tax, it throws you of the rotation, it doesnt generate any mana (for rdm) etc. What should be done is maybe put another raid utility on rdm that could be defensive (like a mantra, or a small shield) to give it a bit more -useful- utility than a smn. then balance the dps to not have that giant gap anymore with blm, just a smaller one.

The difficulty of the job shouldn't be a taken into account when balancing its dps, it just means that some job will be more rewarding for playing it well, if you pick a melee or caster you know what difficulties you'll have to face to get good at it.

[Uliq]

General reminder to all reading that we're talking rDPS here, as in the total sum of raid contribution, now measured capably by fflogs so we don't even have to estimate it by plugging runs into xivrdps anymore. "More personal but damage buffs" arguments are vastly outdated, we really don't need to parse that out in the broad sense anymore. It's only relevant around the edges where you get into scaling with party coordination and such.



Ignoring debating the fine details of your numbers, of course 7 seconds is an adequate trade. 5 seconds is an adequate trade. Heck, so is 2.

The meta comp is purely a matter of what collection of jobs can kill fights the fastest. That's it. If BLM brings more than the other casters, it is now meta, and meta jobs are never shunned.

Which isn't to say SE should try and balance 100% towards the meta, but it's clearly the starting point for people when discussing job balance. Any meta or meta-adjacent job is going to be fine in the eyes of the community.

Making it so non-meta jobs simply don't exist is an impossible goal, but you can get things close enough that people looking at the numbers aren't going to go "oof, my favorite job is terribad", close enough that regular statics and PFs won't wonder if they should restrict themselves to the better jobs to improve their chances.

My static's caster got the i475 RDM weapon this week. He's still playing BLM, even though he's better at RDM, because the divide is so gaping that not even weapon + playing better can bridge it. His favorite job / actual main is SMN, but rip. And this is very common right now, not even because groups are bullying their casters, but because people naturally don't want to feel like they're dragging the group down.

I quit my static

[CrashofZenki]

machinist, keeping 47CPM (highest of any job)

You forgot NIN?

This is the average taken from 5.0
https://i.imgur.com/jtau1fQ.png

Currently seeing NIN w/o any additional SkS doing around 48-49 CPM. Not to mention our opener alone nets us at about... 101-111 CPM, depending on latency.

[Zerathor]

Given the current need caster to raise = wipe savage raiding why bother with raise... SMN and RDM is paying an overrated unused tax

Except that's hilariously wrong lol.
Maybe if the whole party is comprised of grays.