Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Gaethan_Tessula]

... and if people aren’t messing up, you aren’t using it.

Not targeted at you, but kinda invading in for a second.

Any DPS who wonder why healers hate how this game is designed? Remember this line. Having abilities you don't use often unless people screw up, and being told you ought to be happy for having it? That's the healer life.

On the other hand...

We’re not healers

Why does overall role have to be utterly prescriptive to toolkit? Do people WANT job balance to essentially be 5 jobs, but with 3-4 different coats of paint each? Because that's where insisting that you only get tools related to your immediate role leads.

RDM especially. Part of its lore and legacy identity is that it can heal. Personally, I'm still miffed as a longtime fan of the job over the series that it isn't the StB BRD/ShB DNC of casters, but with a healer-aid/mitigation focused support kit and caster level pDPS to make up for embolden being kinda ehhh was a damage buff.

Verraise's issue, like many troubled skills, is that Square Enix encounter design is cruel to it. It's unneeded in EZ content where half the group can rest on the floor and still clear, and it doesn't help clear in the harder content where the DPS checks are sky high. It shouldn't have such a forceful thumb on the scale as it does, but it shouldn't be killed as a scapegoat for SE's inability to balance or design around anything except rDPS.

[Wayfinder3]

Not targeted at you, but kinda invading in for a second.

Any DPS who wonder why healers hate how this game is designed? Remember this line. Having abilities you don't use often unless people screw up, and being told you ought to be happy for having it? That's the healer life.

On the other hand...

Why does overall role have to be utterly prescriptive to toolkit? Do people WANT job balance to essentially be 5 jobs, but with 3-4 different coats of paint each? Because that's where insisting that you only get tools related to your immediate role leads.

RDM especially. Part of its lore and legacy identity is that it can heal. Personally, I'm still miffed as a longtime fan of the job over the series that it isn't the StB BRD/ShB DNC of casters, but with a healer-aid/mitigation focused support kit and caster level pDPS to make up for embolden being kinda ehhh was a damage buff.

Verraise's issue, like many troubled skills, is that Square Enix encounter design is cruel to it. It's unneeded in EZ content where half the group can rest on the floor and still clear, and it doesn't help clear in the harder content where the DPS checks are sky high. It shouldn't have such a forceful thumb on the scale as it does, but it shouldn't be killed as a scapegoat for SE's inability to balance or design around anything except rDPS.

RDMs DPS shouldn't suffer for lore faithfulness and no dps should. Healers entire kits are always useful and if they aren't, those skills aren't costing them large chunks of RDPS between each other.

[Kabooa]

RDMs DPS shouldn't suffer for lore faithfulness and no dps should. Healers entire kits are always useful and if they aren't, those skills aren't costing them large chunks of RDPS between each other.

Yeah, it's almost like they all have Raise.

So it's not an issue if they all do around the same damage.

(Ravioli Ravioli, give me the Revivioli)

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Healers entire kits are always useful and if they aren't, those skills aren't costing them large chunks of RDPS between each other.

Most of my healer kit doesn't get used in tandem until I hit freaking Savage, and other two healers' kits were amputated to homogenize them with WHM. So no, healer kits are not always useful and do lead to questionable re-balancing decisions; when I run out of things to heal, a common occurrence in this game, they become useLESS and I'm left with GLARE GLARE GLARE...

Your issue with RDM Verraise is my issue with half of my job's kit in the average instance. Most dungeon and normal trial raidwides don't do enough damage to justify using Medica 2, let alone Cure 3. I could solo-heal the current EX's half asleep with a fraction of my kit. All that stuff that goes unused on a regular basis could be something, anything more diverse and interesting.

RDMs DPS shouldn't suffer for lore faithfulness and no dps should.

As for the other note, a job from Final Fantasy should play like that job. If you tried to tell me RDM was a Runefencer, I'd laugh and ask where the real Runefencer is. If SE wanted a spellsword with no healing or support utility of actual note, they shouldn't have called it Red Mage. Some adaptation has to be made for genre, but a RDM whose only "White Magic" that gets used is offensive is pushing it. I frankly don't care too much about verraise itself, but I would be very upset if they leave RDM with Vercure and nothing else for non-offensive white magic.

[Wayfinder3]

Yeah, it's almost like they all have Raise.

So it's not an issue if they all do around the same damage.

(Ravioli Ravioli, give me the Revivioli)

Which is why i want verraise and SMN rez to be removed so we can start singing a closer tune to BLM. removing caster rez could redefine the Caster role and the way it contributes to a raid.

Pardon my soap box stance but, RDM and SMN can be more than just BLM with rez and lower damage. but a disgruntled BLM who doesn't want to hear anything about other jobs getting their fair share probably feels intimidated because this is their first taste of dominance in a long time. Meanwhile RDMs honestly can't speak up about any issues without it devolving into Verraise this and Verraise that. The post i made had many other points beyond verraise and how i felt about playing rdm and it's rotation structure yet, look what the comments devolved into.(Such a healthy skill) Meanwhile SMN has always been the most clunky job and SE has never really made it a fluid job to play and that can be frustrating for players of that job.

[Kabooa]

Pardon my soap box stance but, RDM and SMN can be more than just BLM with rez and lower damage. but a disgruntled BLM who doesn't want to hear anything about other jobs getting their fair share probably feels intimidated because this is their first taste of dominance in a long time.

Hey, I agree with you. Get rid of the raise or share it, and you can do all the damage you want.

It's not about dominance. It's about being "fair". Believe it or not, it's -not- fair to have access to a completely separate basic function, -and- do comparable damage. Simply isn't.

Truss it up however you want, justify the evil Black Mage as much as you want.

Fact of the matter is that's "fair". As long as that Raise exists, so does a gap.

[Kurando]

Which is why i want verraise and SMN rez to be removed so we can start singing a closer tune to BLM. removing caster rez could redefine the Caster role and the way it contributes to a raid.

SMN was very well tuned in SB (not immediately but after the adjustments) to the point that it cemented itself in the meta and there was no reason to take a BLM over it, and they had Resurrection but aside from that they were great in damage and other utility. So it goes to show that a job can be balanced around Rez, but it's all about everything else the job brings.

BLM had damage but no utility and RDM had utility but damage was just adequate (not bad but not great either), so even if Rez was removed from all casters, what else are they going to bring. RDM could keep Vercure but everything else would be meh and SMN could be buffed with damage but the fact it still has buff utility over BLM, we'd be back at why take BLM at all. As useful as Rez can be outside of progression, the main concern is what can a caster job bring that makes them worthwhile whilst also staying unique; pure damage, various buff utility or both.

[Wayfinder3]

Hey, I agree with you. Get rid of the raise or share it, and you can do all the damage you want.

It's not about dominance. It's about being "fair". Believe it or not, it's -not- fair to have access to a completely separate basic function, -and- do comparable damage. Simply isn't.

Truss it up however you want, justify the evil Black Mage as much as you want.

Fact of the matter is that's "fair". As long as that Raise exists, so does a gap.

Yeah a gap should exist, but as big as it is now? Thats a problem by which BLM feel justified to be so much more powerful than RDM and SMN. I think it should go so that gap is gone but if it stays, That gap needs to be MUCH closer than it is currently

[Shurrikhan]

Then it's been overpowered since Alphascape, but it's only a problem now, because?

It wasn't nearly as significantly top rDPS in late Alphascape as it and Monk are now. A $100,000 debt can be significant without a $10 debt also having to being fundamentally significant.

When SB BLM was finally balanced, we had the tightest rDPS balance the game had ever seen. Now... we have some of the worst.

[Kabooa]

Yeah a gap should exist, but as big as it is now? Thats a problem by which BLM feel justified to be so much more powerful than RDM and SMN. I think it should go so that gap is gone but if it stays, That gap needs to be MUCH closer than it is currently

Now, here's where I eat some crow.

I can't say for certain how numbers pan out, as with logs now doing the RDps itself, the prior site used for it is no longer operating to my knowledge. This means going back to get more accurate information is a challenge, during Alphascape and prior, but we'll make an effort.

We can say with certainty that A) Black Mage's numbers are lower than shown for RDPS, and B) Red Mages numbers are higher than shown.

Given that Red mage's kit hasn't changed, we can assume a similar ratio of give and take. With Black mage, it's pretty safe to say you can slash them by about 5% and that'll be your "RDPS" for them given the babysitting that went on at the time.

So, using Voidwalker (Again, cuz 100% uptime), we see Red Mage's RDPS / ADPS disparity hits around 12.9 / 12.6. Looking through the other fights, this seems fairly constant. About 2% more, so moving back to alphascape, looking again at Final Omega (100% uptime), applying our modifiers gives us a look at...

8700 to 8100, or about a 600 RDPS difference. About 8%.

If we apply the Shadowbringers inflation rate to Black Mage, we see 8700 to 14,900 or about a 71% increase.
With Red mage we see 8100 to 13,000 or about a 60% increase.

Comparing the two, we see about a 15% difference. Getting this back to 8% is about 900 RDPS, which since RDPS will shift up or down, is better just thrown onto the Red Mage's personal.

This same fight has an RDPS requirement of around 71,000 I believe (It might be higher or lower, just lowballing. This means an extra 1000 DPS results in a quicker clear by about 1.5%, or putting that into easier to digest chunks, about 9-10 seconds faster on the kill. Seeing as people are more likely hitting 75-76k, it's probably closer to 7 seconds faster kill time.

Suppose I'd ask you if 7 seconds is an adequate trade.