Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[kajv95]

on the "200 DPS isn't worth dropping this awesome tool" basis.

We saw it significantly during Stormblood, we saw it some during Heavensward, it was the entire reason behind the Cross Class Nerfs in ARR (Remember when Bard literally had access to everything in their 20% states? pepperidge farm remembers)

I think your situation in Stormblood is overexaggerated, and even if not, that just makes it all the more difficult for me to understand why you're defending this? I get that it must've been difficult when Summoner overtook Black Mage for a moment there, but realise that it was not entirely raise that did that - you forget to take into account Contagion. Which is also gone, by the way.

Contrast Stormblood with, for example, the pf situation that is very widespread among many servers right now, where a significant amount of jobs are being ostracized in favor of the larger numbers. Also keep in mind that many jobs have seen a reduction in the amount of "awesome tools" as well, which also doesn't help the situation. It's way out of proportion right now, with the huge disconnect between the top 3 (possibly soon to be 4) and the rest, and this simply needs to be addressed. You can't have the highest apm job be worthless because it involves less standing still. You can't have ranged worthless because they can move - remember that often times ranged moves so that casters and melees don't have to. And no, all these aforementioned jobs do not bring the awesome tools that make it worth it. We're not arguing that Black Mage shouldn't be at the top. By all means, you can keep that position and we don't care. The lower dps job players just wish that it could feel rewarding to play our job as a dps, and not be "rezbot 1, rezbot 2, when are you swapping to more damage" jobs. There needs to be a reason to consider bringing a different dps, like "If we brought a red mage we could have embolden which benefits our more physical composition more" or "we should bring a black mage so that the dancer can maximize their buffs as they have that additional damage". As Cetonis says, the only question is how close a job can get before a defensive skill changes the math. As such a BRD should not be doing BLM damage, but should be a lot closer than what it is right now. Being closer to each other doesn't just mean that there will be more viable jobs, but also that there will be much more variety in viable parties and it may very well have the capability to change the raiding environment to a healthier one.

There is no shame in a job being better for progging, but there is shame in a job being almost too weak outside of progging. We're advocating being about 500-600, maybe for RDM closer to 800 dps away from the BLM level of dps at top level. Do you think this will break BLM as a job? This is considering rdps values, not pdps.

I honestly think that the mentioned goal of players not having to feel like they have to bring meta comps is within reach, but with the current differences in jobs it's just a different take on the problem. Though I can understand the unwillingness to give up your guaranteed raid spot.

[CrashofZenki]

It was not a personal attack. "You" in the context is any and all current top DPS spots. Just dont have a better way to write it than with "you", or I would have written it differently.

[Miminming]

Now that you mention contagion i believer thatThe most reason they take SMN instead of BLM back then is not raised not personal DPS its more Party buff stuff... people want to raise their number for a certain site (￣▽￣); back then people love nin, drg, brd for... buff...

[Wayfinder3]

I think your situation in Stormblood is overexaggerated, and even if not, that just makes it all the more difficult for me to understand why you're defending this? I get that it must've been difficult when Summoner overtook Black Mage for a moment there, but realise that it was not entirely raise that did that - you forget to take into account Contagion. Which is also gone, by the way.

Contrast Stormblood with, for example, the pf situation that is very widespread among many servers right now, where a significant amount of jobs are being ostracized in favor of the larger numbers. Also keep in mind that many jobs have seen a reduction in the amount of "awesome tools" as well, which also doesn't help the situation. It's way out of proportion right now, with the huge disconnect between the top 3 (possibly soon to be 4) and the rest, and this simply needs to be addressed. You can't have the highest apm job be worthless because it involves less standing still. You can't have ranged worthless because they can move - remember that often times ranged moves so that casters and melees don't have to. And no, all these aforementioned jobs do not bring the awesome tools that make it worth it. We're not arguing that Black Mage shouldn't be at the top. By all means, you can keep that position and we don't care. The lower dps job players just wish that it could feel rewarding to play our job as a dps, and not be "rezbot 1, rezbot 2, when are you swapping to more damage" jobs. There needs to be a reason to consider bringing a different dps, like "If we brought a red mage we could have embolden which benefits our more physical composition more" or "we should bring a black mage so that the dancer can maximize their buffs as they have that additional damage". As Cetonis says, the only question is how close a job can get before a defensive skill changes the math. As such a BRD should not be doing BLM damage, but should be a lot closer than what it is right now. Being closer to each other doesn't just mean that there will be more viable jobs, but also that there will be much more variety in viable parties and it may very well have the capability to change the raiding environment to a healthier one.

There is no shame in a job being better for progging, but there is shame in a job being almost too weak outside of progging. We're advocating being about 500-600, maybe for RDM closer to 800 dps away from the BLM level of dps at top level. Do you think this will break BLM as a job? This is considering rdps values, not pdps.

I honestly think that the mentioned goal of players not having to feel like they have to bring meta comps is within reach, but with the current differences in jobs it's just a different take on the problem. Though I can understand the unwillingness to give up your guaranteed raid spot.

Well said, you beat me to it.

[kajv95]

It was not a personal attack. "You" in the context is any and all current top DPS spots. Just dont have a better way to write it than with "you", or I would have written it differently.

Aye friend, I wrote that post before I read your most recent post saying it was for shock value, so I omitted it. It's alright, and I do think you have a good point in that regard. In fact, your general core idea of the fact that instead of supposedly going in a meta-deleting way, we've simply gone into a different type of meta is extremely sound, though I don't necessarily agree with the changes to raise. Raise on its own is already a taxed ability and simply doesn't have to be taxed aside from less than 1k dps at the absolute maximum.

Now that you mention contagion i believer thatThe most reason they take SMN instead of BLM back then is not raised not personal DPS its more Party buff stuff... people want to raise their number for a certain site (￣▽￣); back then people love nin, drg, brd for... buff...

It had to do with the extreme synergy between all of these jobs. Ninja worked TA for everyone, BRD would get helped by DRG and in turn BRD would help the party as a whole.
Summoner's Contagion would buff themselves and the healer dps, and scholar would help with chain stratagem which would help everyone and had the potential to create an absolutely hilarious burst phase for BRD alongside DRG Battle Litany, while AST could increase that even further.

A lot of these synergizing aspects have been removed though, and as such the current divide in dps has no place here. But back then, BLM absolutely needed the buff in order to be respected, since it didn't have anything like Contagion.

[CrashofZenki]

Aye, I only put out examples of ways to open an actual reform of the current meta to meta trend. I mean, its gonna be an eternal dance of outcries every time one job gets buffed over another, or one gets nerfed under another. Its a quick fix to soothe the symptoms, but it doesnt cure the disease. If you know what I mean?

[kajv95]

Aye, I only put out examples of ways to open an actual reform of the current meta to meta trend. I mean, its gonna be an eternal dance of outcries every time one job gets buffed over another, or one gets nerfed under another. Its a quick fix to soothe the symptoms, but it doesnt cure the disease. If you know what I mean?

Well, I understand what you mean, but I believe that unless you give the BLM access to this raise as well, it'd kind of perpetuate the problem where now BLM is going to stand out as being "that one that doesn't really have options". This is why not every dps has to be fully equal. Bringing a bit more damage can be a gimmick on its own, too. It'd also serve to make defensive buffs that much harder to implement, and would make things far more difficult in the long run. It'll also hurt the perception of options, and options are always a key driving point to any game. Meaningful options are what make a game truly a game, they're what make the interactive experience be more than going through the motions. Else it'd be more like watching a movie but having to hit buttons in the same way to progress the plot every time you watch the movie. Weird analogy probably, it's 5:22 AM and I need sleep

[Kabooa]

Though I can understand the unwillingness to give up your guaranteed raid spot.

I'm not a guaranteed raid spot because I play Black Mage.

Lets get that straight and clear out of the way - Bard. I know it's hard having to give up your guaranteed raid spot of 6+ years.

(See? That doesn't help either of us does it?)

No, my situation in Stormblood wasn't exaggerated. I was literally kicked from groups because I was a Black Mage. I was -never- kicked from a group as a Machinist, even though they were considered -vastly inferior- to Bard until Alphascape, in which case they were only considered somewhat inferior.

And I'm a far worse Machinist than I was a Black Mage.

I'm speaking as someone who has been locked out, retroactively removed ("Whoops, kept Black mage open"), and, from a pure analytical perspective, realized that Black Mage was horrendously weak compared to other potential options in Deltascape. As someone who has played the job since starting in 2.0 and enjoyed the constraints placed upon it, that's rather annoying.

I will concede that it was not -only- Raise that lead to the public opinion. As with anything, there are multiple factors to consider. However, even accounting for those, damage itself is bottom line, and if the Black Mage still brought more, it didn't bring enough to warrant not also bringing a Raise.

600 DPS sounds like a lot, until you consider that at current levels that equates to maybe 3 seconds off a kill time.

3 seconds.

Off a kill time.

For giving up a safety net.

I wouldn't take that trade.

(And neither did most world race teams.)

Black Mage isn't overpowered. You can make the argument for Monk, you can maybe make the argument for Dragoon (If anything, it's a good baseline for all the melee to look at), but you can't make it for Black Mage.

[Shurrikhan]

Black Mage isn't overpowered. You can make the argument for Monk, you can maybe make the argument for Dragoon (If anything, it's a good baseline for all the melee to look at), but you can't make it for Black Mage.

No, we can at this point argue that BLM is currently overpowered. It can't be overpowered without also considering Monk and Dragoon overpowered, but we can consider BLM overpowered alongside them. It just depends on where rDPS is supposed to be with no further non-quantitative attractors in the mix (which, apart from the horribly overestimated caster Raise and maybe Mantra, are few and far between). Anything above that line is overpowered. It's as simple as that. BLM's history of being locked out of raids in early SB has absolutely nothing to do with that simple distinction.

I'm guessing the intended rDPS is nearer to that of SAM, or between it and DRG, since that's the only way, once making the appropriate balance adjustments, the current dps difficulty could be preserved for all but meta compositions (while non-meta compositions would see noticeably more output, and therefore slightly reduced difficulty to dps checks).

[Kabooa]

No, we can at this point argue that BLM is currently overpowered. It can't be overpowered without also considering Monk and Dragoon overpowered, but we can consider BLM overpowered alongside them. It just depends on where rDPS is supposed to be with no further non-quantitative attractors in the mix (which, apart from the horribly overestimated caster Raise and maybe Mantra, are few and far between). Anything above that line is overpowered. It's as simple as that. BLM's history of being locked out of raids in early SB has absolutely nothing to do with that simple distinction. .

Then it's been overpowered since Alphascape, but it's only a problem now, because?