Will the AST 50-60 quests be re-done now that all cards do the same thing?

[gman1311]

The 30-50 block was all about the cards. The 50-60 block was more about the Sharlyan's coming for Leveva. 60-70 block being all about reinforcing the seal on a Kyubi.

But yeah, a LOT of the AST storyline needs a rework lore wise from the ground up since the class and lore does not match up at all.

The chances of the devs changing the class story are slim

[Seraphor]

Kinda ironic if you ask me. The cards are AST's identity, something people say has no value, yet it's likely because of it [and spaghetti coding] that they weren't entirely removed.

I'm not going to go deep into the controversy, the healer forums are doing a great job at that, just saying that you could replace all 8 cards with a single spammable buff and it wouldn't change a thing - It's that redundant.

It's a job mechanic.

You could replace Dancer's Dances with a single spammable buff.
You could replace Samurai's Sen with three identical charges and it wouldn't make a difference.
You could replace Monk's stance system with basic combos and it would still play the same.
You could get rid of Veraero, Verstone, Holy and Veraero II and Red Mage would play exactly the same.

The effect on the party might be the same, but the gameplay is not.
The gameplay is pertinent to the Astrologian.
As far as the party is concerned, the effect being consistent is a good thing.

And that gameplay still includes strategy. You need to use the correct cards on the correct targets.
This is no different to the old ‘dps’ oriented cards, Balance, Spear and Arrow. There was always an optimal target for Crit or Speed, a job that could make use of it. Hell, Speed was wasted or even detrimental to some jobs due to causing clipping or rotation drift.

I think it’s disingenuous to say the entire mechanic boils down to one buff.
It’s more accurate to say they reduced it to just dps, to just three of the six cards, as far as the AST side of it is concerned, because as the AST you never felt the effects of crit or speed you used on a DPS anyway. It was always just theoretical numbers in your head, the satisfaction of knowing you've bestowed an effective buff on another player, that's all it ever was.

So they got rid of the healer utility; mitigation (Bole) and mp regen (Ewer) and not having such crucial skills tied to RNG anymore is definitely a bonus. Intersection for mitigation and a better Lucid Dreaming for mp is much better, although they could do with a bit more mp utility elsewhere.
Nobody misses Spire.

[TankHunter678]

It's a job mechanic.

You could replace Dancer's Dances with a single spammable buff.
You could replace Samurai's Sen with three identical charges and it wouldn't make a difference.
You could replace Monk's stance system with basic combos and it would still play the same.
You could get rid of Veraero, Verstone, Holy and Veraero II and Red Mage would play exactly the same.

You would however by doing that create massive outrage as the classes lose their identity. Which is what has happened with AST. You take the dances out of dancer and it is no longer dancer. You take the sens out of Samurai and it loses its flavor where its only claim to fame is having a katana. You remove the monk stance system and you break the lore behind how the combat style was formed. Remove the White Mage from the Red Mage and it is no longer a Red Mage but a wannabe Black Mage.

I think it’s disingenuous to say the entire mechanic boils down to one buff.
It’s more accurate to say they reduced it to just dps, to just three of the six cards, as far as the AST side of it is concerned, because as the AST you never felt the effects of crit or speed you used on a DPS anyway. It was always just theoretical numbers in your head, the satisfaction of knowing you've bestowed an effective buff on another player, that's all it ever was.

It is not disingenuous, it is being blunt. The entire mechanic literally at this point is one buff. The entire mechanic even fails to achieve the goals of the reason why it was reworked: to remove useless cards and stop fishing. It has instead increased the number of useless cards due to the melee/range split and seals, also because of those things it has drastically increased the amount of fishing you need to do leading to greater furstration then the old system produced.

And it was reduced to just one of the six cards. Not to mention as the AST you could feel the effects of the crit or speed used on a DPS. When that Monk or BRD starts going nuts, or when that BLM and SAM start firing off more big hits. Hell I remember messing around with an FC member on their Warrior, where I managed to help him boost his skillspeed up so that he could fit 8 fel cleaves in a single fel cleave burst window during O1S when it was current content.

So they got rid of the healer utility; mitigation (Bole) and mp regen (Ewer) and not having such crucial skills tied to RNG anymore is definitely a bonus. Intersection for mitigation and a better Lucid Dreaming for mp is much better, although they could do with a bit more mp utility elsewhere.

Intersection does not cover for nearly as much effective damage as a bole did, and the old ewer is needed more then ever to help. Not to mention the existence of such utility skills is why the DPS cards could be strong. With them gone the buff we hand out now is weak. To the point where you get more rDPS out of running a WHM/SCH combo instead of anything involving AST.

[Seraphor]

You would however by doing that create massive outrage as the classes lose their identity. Which is what has happened with AST. You take the dances out of dancer and it is no longer dancer. You take the sens out of Samurai and it loses its flavor where its only claim to fame is having a katana. You remove the monk stance system and you break the lore behind how the combat style was formed. Remove the White Mage from the Red Mage and it is no longer a Red Mage but a wannabe Black Mage.

Completely missing the point.
For all of those job mechanics, they all result in the same effect.
They're all in the same place AST is right now, are all of those jobs complaining?

Are Dancers complaining that different dance steps don't have different effects? That no matter what order they press them it, it always results in a 5% buff?
Are Samurai complaining that different Sen don't have different effects? That it only matters how many they have?
Are Red Mages complaining that their black and white magicks don't have different effects? That Veraero has the same potency and effect as Verthunder?

AST still has a viable job mechanic, where you have to place the correct cards onto the correct targets, to optimise your buffing effect.

Intersection does not cover for nearly as much effective damage as a bole did, and the old ewer is needed more then ever to help. Not to mention the existence of such utility skills is why the DPS cards could be strong. With them gone the buff we hand out now is weak. To the point where you get more rDPS out of running a WHM/SCH combo instead of anything involving AST.

Then that's an issue of potency and balancing.
Make Intersection more effective.
Give AST another MP utility.
But being off an RNG system alone is a huge improvement.
Bole and Ewer were both useless if you never drew them, and they replaced your rDPS contribution when you did.


As for the effectiveness of the buffs, Cards are comparable to Trick Attack.

Trick attack is 10% over 10s every 60s.

Divination being 6% over 15s, is equivalent to 9% over 10s, so only 1% less.
It’s only every 120s though.

But then consider that as Divination is cooling down, you can use four single target cards of the same effect or greater.
Use them on all four DPS in a full party, or all party members in a 4-man, and that’s equivalent to having 2 Divinations every 120s, or… one every 60s.
Then consider you’ll get at least one Minor Arcana for 8% over 15s, which would be equivalent to 12% over 10s, completely making up for that 1% loss to Trick Attack on the other three cards. Except you can target the top DPS instead of it being a blanket buff on all party members.

Throw in Sleeve Draw and you’re in credit.

[TankHunter678]

Completely missing the point.
For all of those job mechanics, they all result in the same effect.
They're all in the same place AST is right now, are all of those jobs complaining?

Are Dancers complaining that different dance steps don't have different effects?
Are Samurai complaining that different Sen don't have different effects?
Are Red Mages complaining that their black and white magicks don't have different effects?

AST still has a viable job mechanic, where you have to place the correct cards onto the correct targets, to optimise your buffing effect.

Dancers are only complaining about their pDPS feeling too low or some not liking the amount of RNG layers the class has. If you removed the dances, the selling point of the class, they would be in an uproar about that.
Samurai are complaining that their DPS is not comparable to BLMs, and that Monks and Dragoons completely outclass them. If you removed the Sen then they would be in an uproar about that as it means the entire class would need a rework to even function.
Red Mages complain about the fact they still lack Water and Blizzard magic, and that their DPS is too low. If you removed the White Magic or the Black Magic then they cease to be Red Mages as you are removing a selling point.

AST has a "viable" job mechanic that is completely split off from its lore. That again fails to reach its intended design goals and can be distilled into just a ST buff button and a party buff button with a refresh and charges given button.

Then that's an issue of potency and balancing.
Make Intersection more effective.
Give AST another MP utility.
But being off an RNG system alone is a huge improvement.
Bole and Ewer were both useless if you never drew them, and they replaced your rDPS contribution when you did.

As for the effectiveness of the buffs, Cards are comparable to Trick Attack.

Trick attack is 10% over 10s every 60s.

Divination being 6% over 15s, is equivalent to 9% over 10s, so only 1% less.
It’s only every 120s though.

But then consider that as Divination is cooling down, you can use four single target cards of the same effect or greater.
Use them on all four DPS in a full party, or all party members in a 4-man, and that’s equivalent to having 2 Divinations every 120s, or… one every 60s.
Then consider you’ll get at least one Minor Arcana for 8% over 15s, which would be equivalent to 12% over 10s, completely making up for that 1% loss to Trick Attack on the other three cards. Except you can target the top DPS instead of it being a blanket buff on all party members.

Throw in Sleeve Draw and you’re in credit.

You would need to give intersection a 2000 potency shield to even begin to compare to the amount of effective damage reduction Bole could give over its 30-85 second duration.

Ewer was AST's other MP utility alongside the cost saving of Lightspeed. It makes no sense anywhere else to throw a MP utility on. And the common suggestion is to give AST its old card effects back in addition to the general DPS increase. Which would return Ewer to being that MP utility.

Currently cards are worse then Trick attack in every way. If you get a party of ranged then melee cards become worthless unless you want to chuck an entire sleeve draw rotation onto the tank when it refuses to give you ranged cards. If you get a party of only melees then ranged cards become worthless unless you have a WHM in the party (ASTs pDPS is so laughable that its actually a waste to throw onto yourself). Keep in mind you can only buff the entire party on top of divination once every 3 (well technically 4 if you use Divination on cooldown and did not use Sleeve draw for the opener to get divination) minutes, the sleeve draw cooldown. Keep in mind that Sleeve draw needs to be ideal and give you the right card every time. Otherwise you get worthless buffs.

If you do not get perfect card pulls then it is ultimately worthless. Making Divination itself the only worthwhile buff which again, that is every 2 minutes.

This entire problem is why AST is so rare in high level content. You have to spend a high amount of effort for very low reward that other classes can achieve in a single button press (or in the case of NIN one mudra combination, ninjutsu, and then a positioning check on the trick attack).

[Seraphor]

Dancers are only complaining about their pDPS feeling too low or some not liking the amount of RNG layers the class has. If you removed the dances, the selling point of the class, they would be in an uproar about that.
Samurai are complaining that their DPS is not comparable to BLMs, and that Monks and Dragoons completely outclass them. If you removed the Sen then they would be in an uproar about that as it means the entire class would need a rework to even function.
Red Mages complain about the fact they still lack Water and Blizzard magic, and that their DPS is too low. If you removed the White Magic or the Black Magic then they cease to be Red Mages as you are removing a selling point.

AST has a "viable" job mechanic that is completely split off from its lore. That again fails to reach its intended design goals and can be distilled into just a ST buff button and a party buff button with a refresh and charges given button.

So they're not complaining about sharing the exact same issue as AST then?
Right.


And the rest of your post?
There's more often than not a mix of ranged and melee, especially in 8 man content.
And even when there's not, a 3% buff is not 'useless' and again, doesn't apply to Divination.
So at most, it lowers your rDPS by about 12%.
That's 12% of your 'effective' 10% for 10s every 60s buff, so about 1% less.


EDIT: What a surprise:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5139619

[TankHunter678]

So they're not complaining about sharing the exact same issue as AST then?
Right.


And the rest of your post?
There's more often than not a mix of ranged and melee, especially in 8 man content.
And even when there's not, a 3% buff is not 'useless' and again, doesn't apply to Divination.
So at most, it lowers your rDPS by about 12%.
That's 12% of your 'effective' 10% for 10s every 60s buff, so about 1% less.

Dancers never had their dances effects altered since their implementation, the only "dance" with a different effect is curing waltz. Samurai never had their sens altered since their implementation. Red Mages never had their elements altered since their implementation.

AST had its entire utility toolkit take from it, changing it to be completely different from its original implementation. That is on an entirely different scale.

As for your other comment... 60% of the time I get all ranged. 30% of the time I get all melee. Its more rare for me to get mixed groups then it is one range type groups. Especially in 8 man content.

Also, a 3% buff is useless. That is 300 extra DPS for someone doing 10k DPS. Which is not much at all in the grand scheme of things. In fact even with divination and sleeve draw stacking you overall increase the rDPS of the group by 2% of the course of an 7-11 minute fight due to the length of the cooldown of divination and sleeve draw. Quite a bit different from the old AST where one could actually achieve a 30 sec 5% damage buff on the party every 60 seconds and every 2 minutes could provide a 40 sec damage buff if one was lucky in pulling balances and keeping a balance in the spread. Something I personally experienced several times.

[Seraphor]

Dancers never had their dances effects altered since their implementation, the only "dance" with a different effect is curing waltz. Samurai never had their sens altered since their implementation. Red Mages never had their elements altered since their implementation.

AST had its entire utility toolkit take from it, changing it to be completely different from its original implementation. That is on an entirely different scale.

As for your other comment... 60% of the time I get all ranged. 30% of the time I get all melee. Its more rare for me to get mixed groups then it is one range type groups. Especially in 8 man content.

Also, a 3% buff is useless. That is 300 extra DPS for someone doing 10k DPS. Which is not much at all in the grand scheme of things. In fact even with divination and sleeve draw stacking you overall increase the rDPS of the group by 2% of the course of an 7-11 minute fight due to the length of the cooldown of divination and sleeve draw. Quite a bit different from the old AST where one could actually achieve a 30 sec 5% damage buff on the party every 60 seconds and every 2 minutes could provide a 40 sec damage buff if one was lucky in pulling balances and keeping a balance in the spread. Something I personally experienced several times.

All ranged or all melee in 8 man content, 90% of the time, is bullshit.

And I'm sure you also experienced drawing nothing but Spires and Ewers a fair amount too, right?
When you average it out, a 30s 5% every 60s... compared to... nothing every 60s because you've spend the last 10 minutes drawing Spires... 3% actually looks quite good.

When you're drawing an Expanded Balance every 60s, where is your super useful Bole or Ewer?

What if WHM's has Stone and Tetra share the same button, but it randomly changed to one or the other every 60s?
Having healing utility tied to RNG is and always was just bad design.

[MsQi]

Why does everyone keep asking this?

So little of the AST plot relies on the "lore" of the individual cards. Leveva gives a two-sentence description of each constellation that vaguely alludes to what each card does. That's all it ever involved. The rest treats "the cards" as a single tool and focuses more on healing magicks, conflict with Ishgard and the characters' personal issues.

Would you like to explain what actually needs changing now that the card effects have been altered?

When game play corresponds to lore, immersion intensifies. Breaking that after the fact is worse than if it had never been. It's like a puzzle that was complete has had pieces removed from the middle.

[FoxyAreku]

Yeah...old ast quests sure haven't aged well.

Class is dead.