Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Endariel]

To be even more fair, just the inclusion of a cure and a raise doesn't a red mage make either. By that definition a summoner is a red mage too. No, it is a bastardization of a beloved archetype because of SE's inability to add any meaningful support jobs due to the formulaic approach in job and encounter design. As a savage raider, I agree that we can clear content. However, this requires a team that accepts the DPS loss for bringing a RDM. There is a mathematical DPS loss that is realized as a result of bringing a RDM. In fact, why would you bring one at all? Do you often bring a contingency plan or just teach your members not to die? In the rare instance that a DPS in a farm group does die, swiftcast raise from one of the healers is almost always a better choice. It is a fact that RDMs are being openly discriminated against. I am certain that that every savage group knows they could have better DPS by excluding the RDM. It's really not about whether a static group is accepting of this fact but rather how it makes the RDM player feel. You feel like a detriment to your group because you know that you could bring better DPS on another job. Better DPS equals faster clears and less chance for death due to decreased encounter length.

Just wait for the next Eureka where rdm will be the most desired job

[Zerathor]

To be even more fair, just the inclusion of a cure and a raise doesn't a red mage make either. By that definition a summoner is a red mage too. No, it is a bastardization of a beloved archetype because of SE's inability to add any meaningful support jobs due to the formulaic approach in job and encounter design. As a savage raider, I agree that we can clear content. However, this requires a team that accepts the DPS loss for bringing a RDM. There is a mathematical DPS loss that is realized as a result of bringing a RDM. In fact, why would you bring one at all? Do you often bring a contingency plan or just teach your members not to die? In the rare instance that a DPS in a farm group does die, swiftcast raise from one of the healers is almost always a better choice. It is a fact that RDMs are being openly discriminated against. I am certain that that every savage group knows they could have better DPS by excluding the RDM. It's really not about whether a static group is accepting of this fact but rather how it makes the RDM player feel. You feel like a detriment to your group because you know that you could bring better DPS on another job. Better DPS equals faster clears and less chance for death due to decreased encounter length.

we actually bring a rdm in our savage groups lol. the rdm being there has never been an issue. Its actually been extremely helpful to the party for learning fights, people accept the dps loss because it's still a very useful tool, more useful than I think you understand. People make mistakes from time to time, especially while learning. Adding a safety net for consistency just saves a lot of headache in the grand scheme of things. Going for speed runs is an entirely other ballpark that isn't going to even be relevant until everyone is max geared.

Going for just general clears however, rdm is still great. It just depends on the rest of your party not being absolutely horrible dps

[IchiExorz]

we actually bring a rdm in our savage groups lol. the rdm being there has never been an issue. Its actually been extremely helpful to the party for learning fights, people accept the dps loss because it's still a very useful tool, more useful than I think you understand. People make mistakes from time to time, especially while learning. Adding a safety net for consistency just saves a lot of headache in the grand scheme of things. Going for speed runs is an entirely other ballpark that isn't going to even be relevant until everyone is max geared.

Going for just general clears however, rdm is still great. It just depends on the rest of your party not being absolutely horrible dps

RDM is without a doubt useful and worth taking when learning/progressing but the problem is that they fall off by a lot when a group manages to clear it and starts farming/speedclearing it. Sure you can still kill it with a RDM but having a RDM at that point would be a detriment to your group.
For raid statics it probably won't be too much of a problem but for pug groups this is a disaster.

Also for the RDM player it's not very fun either to know that if they played any other caster they'd be more useful to their team at that point.
Their utility will be near useless then & all they're left with is some of the lowest DPS in the game.

While on the contrary, while learning or progressing I don't think a BLM player will complain about not being useful if they're ahead in dps by a lot.

[Kabooa]

RDM is without a doubt useful and worth taking when learning/progressing but the problem is that they fall off by a lot when a group manages to clear it and starts farming/speedclearing it. Sure you can still kill it with a RDM but having a RDM at that point would be a detriment to your group.
For raid statics it probably won't be too much of a problem but for pug groups this is a disaster.

Also for the RDM player it's not very fun either to know that if they played any other caster they'd be more useful to their team at that point.
Their utility will be near useless then & all they're left with is some of the lowest DPS in the game.

While on the contrary, while learning or progressing I don't think a BLM player will complain about not being useful if they're ahead in dps by a lot.

2k more dps on a 72k requirement tag is a 2.8% increase. On a fight taking 630 seconds, this means the fight instead takes 613.

[CecMiller]

I also have a view on this but I primarily focused it on SMN initially as it was a SMN only thread. I think the top 3/4 jobs (BLM, DRG, MNK and SAM) are too far ahead in rdps contributions relative to the other jobs. BLM stands out in particular as it is the only job in its role that fires ahead of both other casters. NIN is the weak link with regards to melee (and in my view the should be higher than DRG, MNK, SAM in terms of rdps very slightly at the highest level) with SAM a bit further behind when compared to DRG and MNK. Ranged dps seem balanced, but I personally think DNC should be higher than BRD and then MCH last in RDPS at high levels (but notably similar at lower levels) of play whilst the reverse is true in adps order due to the reasons listed in the following quote:

I editted the quote to be a bit more appropriate in this thread's context. Also, I think as time goes on, party buffs need to be cut in power so that adequate personal dps in both single target and AOE remains strong in all jobs that have party buff utility.

I just wanted to touch upon the DPS capability of SMN in general as I don't think I talk about this too much.

Right now, both RDM and SMN are too low with respect to BLM. In fact, a lot of classes seem to be very close to each other but there are stand out jobs like DRG, MNK and BLM and SAM lagging slightly behind where as the others are a bit more closely matched. I'm certain SMN needs changes and with those changes, hopefully its DPS is brought up. But at the same time, the gap the top 3 (with SAM joining them if buffed) have over the other jobs is pretty mindboggling even when BLM is considered to be a purely DPS class, its ADPS should be higher but not its RDPS. RDPS ideally should be equal with a slight preferrence to utility classes. This is because they require good execution from everyone in the party to utilize their kit in these buff windows. Furthermore, the jobs with these utilities are always weaker in content that is solo or 4 man or anything less than 8 man content where as the "pure dps" jobs are always stronger in these areas. When these tools are not utilized optimally, their rdps would be lower and as such, when used at their maximum benefit, they should eclipse those "pure dps" jobs in terms of raid dps contribution via their own personal dps + the dps their utility has provided.

I would also note that ressurection does not provide ANY dps utility at a high level. However, their benefit is clear in pug groups when deaths are more common. The current state of balance is significantly worse than patch 4.5. If both RDM and SMN are being taxed for ressurection, then its better off removed entirely from both jobs as it creates an unequal balancing environment - I would personally already prefer this.

An example of patch 4.5 with the fastest speedkill in Final Omega:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/x6ajk...pe=damage-done

SMN had contagion here (10% Magic Debuff every 60s for 15s). However it hits only 4 people: BLM, AST, SCH and PLD (If holy spirits are aligned) in this group (discounting the SMN as its contribution to their DPS is part of their personal DPS). Further, devotion was 2% as opposed to 5% so its contribution was a lot lower.

Evyerthing considered, the gap was certainly not made up by these buffs alone (almost 1.6k dps) and I very much think they would be very close but I cannot see that anymore as the website I used has been discontinued. Discounting the buffs from BRD, DRG, AST (BLM got 2 extra balances), SCH from both jobs personal dps and adding contagion and devotion to SMN would certainly mean their raid dps contribution was a lot closer.

Monk provided both mantra and brotherhood which is an incredibly strong buff on a low cooldown and physical only for whatever reason when there no longer exists magical buffs. Dragoon provides both crazy personal dps and battle litany and dragon sight.

Where I'm going with this is that SMN should have a similar placing to Monk if not higher when everything is balanced. Previously, the rankings in 4.5 would go BLM, SAM, MNK/SMN interchangeable and I think this was a good spot. Right now, it should go BLM, SAM, MCH, MNK/SMN, DRG/RDM/BRD, NIN/DNC in terms of personal dps contribution. However, I don't think this is close to being true at the moment - DRG's placement is the only one I'm actually unsure about.

RDPS lists should be much closer but it goes without saying that the jobs closer to the bottom in terms of personal dps should be higher on this list due to my reasons above. It is also worth noting that I only believe these difference should be evident at the very highest levels of play. The lower the level of play, the worse utility jobs should arguably be and the stronger pure dps jobs should be. I.e. NIN/DNC, DRG/BRD/RDM, MNK/SMN etc The problem then arrises in the dps discrepency between MCH, BLM and SAM where MCH would be lower in rdps purely because it is mobile. Its worth acknowledging that hard casting is harder than being mobile. As a result, the top percentiles should see this difference and hopefully its more balanced when player skill is a bit worse. We should ideally only see these rankings at the top level. To those that think that pure dps jobs should be at the top of both lists - what would be the point of bringing jobs that provide dps utility on top of their personal dps in that case? If DPS utility cannot provide adequate enough of a dps gain to reach similar dps levels of RDPS of pure dps classes at low levels of play and higher at higher level of play, why should they suffer penalties in any content that is less than 8 man where they do MUCH less dps and their utility counts for less? Further, this is a team game and its my personal belief that well-used buff windows over a range of classes should generate the "fastest" speed kills. That is why there needs to be this difference in raid dps contribution where the jobs with dps utility are stronger than the pure dps jobs at the highest level.

[Vendalwind]

snip.

Thank you for this 100% agree.

[DemonZeroX]

SMNs and RDMs seem really mixed on whether they should abandon their Raises for more DPS or not. I say why not have both?

Make a new spell for the two of them called like "Force of the Spirit" or something. Give it a 60 sec CD. Instant Cast but on GCD. Does like 500 potency(I'm not a numbers person, so someone way more qualified can feel free to tweak them.) And finally, Additional Effect: "Grants Spiritual Deafness for 60 seconds. While under the effect of Spiritual Deafness, The spell Raise/Verraise cannot be used."

This way people who aren't comfortable with a fight or are doing Progression on a Raid can keep their Raise up and for older content or content now on Farm status, you can trade your Raise for more damage. This could also come bundled with some other potency buffs if they're necessary, of course.

[Besame]

BLM: Yoshi's char (nuff said), the others I don't know. I leveled a bard to 80, it was just ok, started leveling a SMN, no pet aggro, no play and shelved. I will give BLM a whirl after I finish leveling my WHM.

[Seraphor]

Before I say anything, I don't know if MNK dps warrants that big of a difference, and maybe it could be toned down a bit? But...

Monk is one of the jobs I feel like should always be at the top end of the charts. Simply because its a pure melee job, and its rotation is one of the busiest with positionals in pretty much every weaponskill. That coupled with having to manage Greased Lightning at all times. That's a boatload of button presses to be made to be optimal. And yes, I'm counting the WASD key presses. It would be a disservice towards monk if someone else did as much dps with less effort.

But MNK has some party utility.
Meanwhile SAM is pure selfish DPS. so surely SAM should be top of the pile?

[Eliadil]

People want to be viable in end game content and not feel like they are holding their teams back. [snip]

The issue with the current rdm and smn is that most of their utility comes in the form of raise and cure, things that you don't need when you've cleared Savage once and if you wanna farm it/do a speedkill. Tbh, I still don't see why they choose to keep a healing spell on Summoner, but hey what do I know I'm just a filthy sam main.

What should be done tbh is maybe tone up the damage buff that some class provides indeed. As for ninja tho, I do agree that the job needs to change a lot right now. I don't think that damage dealt by RDM and SMN is an issue, I think that in the contrary, the current buffs/raid utilities are an issue.

The dev team tried their best to remove some synergy in comps, and tried their best to change the fact that there was a "meta" comp in 4.0.
I think that they are afraid of giving bigger buffs right now because they don't want to have the same thing as with Ninja in Stormblood as an example, where most openers were defined around Trick Attack because it was that good of an ability for your group (along with ninja being not as bad as it is right now). And technically they should completely be afraid of giving even bigger buffs. Because while 1% damage increase doesn't seem much, for an entire group it does mean a lot, and things could get really dumb really quickly... But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't give some class better raid buffs, I just think that this isn't the thing you tweak without proper reflections.

(also, right now Sam ain't even worth a dragoon or a monk in a group, and the class itself cannot compete with these two because both do really good numbers while having utility on the top. I mean, we've all seen what happened with 4.0 SAM and party finder lmao. I just don't want that to happen again, not just for samurai but for every class. I'm just trying to say that maybe you should try and focus more on the utility and buffs your class could give/should be balanced around rather than trying to play a black mage with embolden. The goal is to keep every class viable, not toss one into the corner for an entire expac because it doesn't give enough utility or doesn't deal enough damage for his (lack of) good utility.)