5.08 Nin buff / 5.1 Ninja getting gutted...

[bass9020]

It really should have been Sneak Attack, given the rear positional requirement. Trick Attack could have been a follow-up move or something.

Yea never understood why they got rid of Sneak Attack, I loved how they both worked in XI. Wish they would just make them more interesting and powerful.

[Shurrikhan]

Never a good idea to just assume other people opinions. I for myself do like the trick attack and would hate it if it got nerfed or even removed. And I am sure I am not the only one who thinks that way.

You're not. Far from it. I like applying it and I like having it in among party's toolkits. I would still enjoy it even if taking a NIN was merely rDPS-neutral at the highest levels of play from the NIN itself and their party.

Personally, I hate raid (de)buffs of less than equivocally ~10% damage effect. If it isn't enough to be worth banking or situationally even holding onto a CD for, I don't want it around. Thus, I don't want TA nerfed to any less effect than it already has.

For instance, I'd rather see Devotion cut, Brotherhood reworked, Dragon Sight reworked (though for other reasons as well), Chain Stratagem buffed or reworked, and AST cards reworked entirely. But, TA's already in a good spot. It's short and sweet. It's iconic. It should remain such.

Yea never understood why they got rid of Sneak Attack, I loved how they both worked in XI. Wish they would just make them more interesting and powerful.

Agreed. I had hoped they'd just keep Trick Attack's base potency and then just give it two available positional bonuses: from the front, an additional 260 potency or so (to the old 500; more likely closer to 800 now with all the power creep and trait removals); from the rear, 10% vuln up for 10 seconds.

[Aaramis]

I think I posted this elsewhere, but to reiterate, I'd love to see the following:
- complete mudra rework. For example, Hyosho requires 4 button presses for mediocre damage. That's a poor tradeoff IMO. Why not simply replace Hyoton and Katon with their upgrades at 76+, like many other jobs do?
- nerf TA to perhaps 5% down from 10%. The higher our ilevel continues to climb, the more TA will be worth, and therefore the less our pdps will be limited to. In other words, TA is hamstringing us. It needs to change. 5% seems more reasonable. In return, I'd love to see TA useable outside of Hide / Suiton, and when used under Hide / Suiton allow for an auto-crit.
- Bunshin needs to be adjusted. It also clouds the purpose of the TA window. Are we supposed to use weaponskills only? Hyosho is our highest potency attack, but then if we're using ninjutsu in the TA window, our clone is useless. And even without Bunshin up, if we're using ninjutsu, we're not building ninki - so I'm not sure what SE's whole goal is here. It's as though our job has 2 different identities that don't mesh well together at all.

Anyways, looking forward to the changes in the future, as I do love NIN, but shelving for now sadly :/

[CrashofZenki]

I find it sad that the devs are going the easy way out and wants to bring mudra on GCDs like DNC steps. I think this is a mistake, and quite frankly will make the class more boring and split identity.
I love the fact that NIN is fast pace, its the job with most casts per minute, and as such it should be rewarded for this.

I dont see why we have to do toothpick damage because of our Trick Attack. In my honest opinion I find it weird that we are taxed for an ability that MIGHT give more rDPS than a DPS without party buffs.
And how is it that 5% More damage on an ability than MNK's Brotherhood is justification to place us thousands of DPS bellow them in total damage?

I feel that its illogical for buff DPS to be out dpsed in rDPS by a DPS that brings nothing to the group other than their own DPS. Its backwards and puts a heavy burden of stress on the DPS that has party utility.
It splits up the community and breaks statics.
-Example: BLM should perform DPS wise, on average better than lets say a NIN. BUT.. a Great NIN should have the ability to shred the BLM in rDPS if the party as well perform high.
Why? Because BLM will have no other factors into play for DPS than their own skill. NIN however has to be insanely good at executing their rotations perfectly, as well as very low latency, on top of memorizing everything so they dont have to look at the hotbar 95% of the Fight while still doing positions, do mechanics and so on.

BLM might think its hard to find spots to stand to maximize their DPS, but NIN will have to do the same AND follow a high paced rotation that leaves no room for error. Just in the opener itself, we press 27 off global buttons, and thats not taking into account pre pull huton, hide, or potions. You are looking at 27 ogcds from the moment the timer goes off to Trick attack's 10sec window is over.

So please, reward us NIN when we actually pull this off.

1. Make NIN stay a complex class to play and place mudra's on client side instead for the latency issues to be fixed.
2. Buff Ninjutsu potencies.
3. Give us the original Bunshin (Mimicing weapon skills we do with the potencies those weapon skills do, just slightly tuned down. aka.. 75% ish. As well as Bunshin combo finisher on AE and DoT from Shadow Fang.)
4. If needed, nerf TA into a brotherhood status. Or remove it completely, and open up more Sneak Assassin type skills for personal burst in place of the lost Trick Attack.

[TheGrimace]

I get the impression that I will probably love the 5.08 adjustments and loathe 5.1's. I love how busy Ninja is, and I just want the damage output to be correctly proportional how frantic the job is. Minus TCJ, I like how ninjutsu currently works and think doing anything with ninjutsu, short of making it client-side, would be a mistake. Maybe they will surprise me, but I am not optimistic right now.

[kajv95]

I feel that its illogical for buff DPS to be out dpsed in rDPS by a DPS that brings nothing to the group other than their own DPS. Its backwards and puts a heavy burden of stress on the DPS that has party utility.
It splits up the community and breaks statics.
-Example: BLM should perform DPS wise, on average better than lets say a NIN. BUT.. a Great NIN should have the ability to shred the BLM in rDPS if the party as well perform high.
Why? Because BLM will have no other factors into play for DPS than their own skill. NIN however has to be insanely good at executing their rotations perfectly, as well as very low latency, on top of memorizing everything so they dont have to look at the hotbar 95% of the Fight while still doing positions, do mechanics and so on.

This. Standing still isn't the *only* difficulty this game has. Utility is completely taxed to hell right now but conveniently forgotten on the top 4. (BLM Addle from the Role Action set, MNK Mantra + Brotherhood, DRG Battle Litany + Eye, SAM Feint). I wouldn't say "shred rdps", I'm thinking more like 102-105% in perfectly optimal setting. Give players a bonus for bringing a supportive job, while making them more like 90-94% in less than optimal setting.

The whole idea behind "not making things required for meta comps" is falling ever flat on its face due to the disparity in the top 4 and everyone else, which is conveniently a top 4, a perfect amount of dps jobs to bring. Thanks to this, it's worse than ever.

I may not be a NIN-main, but a BRD one and the concept is similar, just because we bring some rdps to the table and don't have to stand still, we get to be weaker. Here I was thinking constantly having to press buttons and making split second decisions was our trade-off, but nope.

It's far too easy for NINs and DNCs, and even BRDs to a lesser extent, to fall off the map because our rDPS tops are already reliant on bringing as high as possible other dps, and we're still HEAVILY behind. In contrast, BLM is topping and dependant on no one. Nobody needs to coordinate with BLM at all for them to reach greatness. All because "doesn't have a raise" and "has to stand still".

[Seraphor]

I do kinda think there's way too much Ninjutsu use now, especially with Kasatsu's charges. It feels like we have no time to use our other skills.

I wouldn't mind making Ninjutsu less frequent (or less spam via Kasatsu at least) but more powerful, then turning Trick > Dream > Assassinate into a slightly more common oGCD combo we weave between GCD's when we're not using Ninjutsu.

That's the only method I'd like if they removed or nerfed Trick's vuln. really.

[Tenryou]

So people keep bringing up trick attack and parties. The average player isn't gonna make the most use of trick attack. This sole skill is basically the bane of ninjas existence right now. We wanna give you more damage but we need to consider how trick attack works with parties. Some people are like just take the skill we don't want while others just want it nerfed. Nobody wants to hear BUT TRICK ATTACK when they are 2-3k personal dps behind other dealers that have lower apm, skill ceilings, and less issues with ping. The skill isn't giving 3k raid dps so why is it that we're being punished for it?

As far as removing it. i don't wanna see it go because in a sense it's piece of Thief a class we will never get in this game(mug too) yet if this one skill is the sole reason that SE wont balance our personal so that we're not locked out of party finder group then remove it all together and give us bland skill like battle litany/brotherhood/battlevoice ETC. i love ninja and all it extreme button pushing and cd/resource management i want it to keep what makes it unique but not at the cost of being shunned or treated like a burden

[Uliq]

We aren't treated as a burden, we are one. TA output isn't enough to justify the lack of dmg even with 3 BLM in party. Considering the dps requirements for Savage if you aren't over geared + over melded you aren't making the checks so parties are carrying you through. Drop TA really. it's not an argument now as to it's usefulness. If it is going to be so much of a crutch you can't make base dps numbers to clear content then it isn't needed. You want to check the usability of a job vs others, quit the party composition crap and check them baseline. 4 ninja clearing Titania at lowest gear level vs 4 blm. The difference in dps is evident. Currently taking a DNC and ninja into any endgame content at the same time is an almost guarentee'd failure at base ilvl.

We aren't getting potency buffs because TA is so useful! Screw TA then. Dev's need to figure out how to balance the classes over all. ShB so far has been the biggest fail with the gaps between all the jobs not just the dps. You're making the meta game worse with the clear differences in skill required vs usefulness of the jobs. I like the complexity of ninja always have. But right now I'm on the ropes of if I want to quit the game all together due to the inbalance throughout the game. Dispoportionate rates of ability at ones job (tank vs tank, healer vs healer, dps vs dps) to this extent is just going to make the endgame requirement more strict and going to force more then just 3 classes to be locked out.

P.S. You need a head overseer of each role, not just the classes/jobs. A person that looks over every job of that role and weed out the differences.

(i.e PLD using 2k mana per ability regening 1k mp per riot blade
DRK using 3k mana per ability regening 600 per syphon strike.)

where is the balance? This will never equal out in the long run. The higher the ilevel the higher the stats the bigger the gap will become between these two with just this right here. Not even going to get into the rest of the nonsense.

[Machi_Machiavelli]

For SE to balance around trick attack it makes me think trick attack does something none of us has figured out yet. Cause they make it sound like it's worth the low dps trade off.