[SPOILERS]Considering that new Minfilia feature.

[QT_Melon]

Tataru is definitely comic relief and fit the role. Urianger is our brainy guy

To be honest the kiddnapping annoyed me at the beginning for most of these characters mentioned because I really didn't know them. However, the devs have actually developed them into more interesting types that I could "tolerate" it or waive it. So no it's not that as much you think.

Even with my annoyance with Tataru, she does make me chuckle at times, and even with Urianger tossing me a giant word salad I still get their roles.

And I said earlier in these posts Minfilia seems way more to be a Jean Grey type character that on paper shows what can be a compelling character but seems to be more forced to push reactions of other characters around us than our own.

[RopeDrink]

Im quite confused here. Like, isn't that what the author of any media should strive for when he's writing a character: to make his writers feel like his characters are real

This has already been touched on, but we absolutely should be (and generally are) talking about these characters like they are actual people. Any time we express anything about their personalities or "what they would want" or what they did or thought... we're talking about them as living people from a country called Eorzea, not a programmed cluster of polygons in a video game, or plot devices in a narrative.

My comments have no bearing on how writing, movies, games, or any media incur a real passion for fictional characters. That is its own thing. As I pointed out before, there is nothing wrong with being passionate about a character and nobody should feel bad for doing so, no matter how much other people might dislike them, but that isn't the point. Said comments referred to very specific posts that were reactionary-typed as if Minfilia is an actual person in the real world who needed defending from evil people who might hurt her non-existent feelings. Investing in a character and discussing them like they are more than words on a page is a great thing, but this is still a fictional fantasy and not real-life drama involving living people, thus those who reacted like people with a different opinion on the character were defaming an actual person achieved very little with those words. As said, two different things.

Minfilia was atrociously handled and happens to be one of the lesser-liked (overall) characters for a large list of very specific and over-explained reasons. I've always liked her, but that is the way of it.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Tataru, Papalymo, and Urianger are also captured...while not on a mission, or really doing anything more or less useful than Minfilia was doing at the time.

Another point about "Minfilia is useless/doesn't fight/gets kidnapped constantly!" is that the first time it happened, Urianger and Papalymo did got both kidnaped as well, and both where more than capable to defend themselves, but they didn't because they did know better to not do that.

In fact, skipping cutscenes because it features one specific character, and one that is so vitally integral to the story no less, is in fact being very disrespectful of the character, the story and the writer as well. You essentially did not give Ryne any kind of chance to prove herself, you did not give the story a chance to promote her, and you did not give the writer a chance to flesh her out and make her into a worthy successor.

Bloody hell, even Thancred was able to accept this

Like I said, I still managed to enjoy the storyline whilst skipping almost all cutscenes that includes Ryne, I really liked it. I just do not agree with the path they decided to take with Minfilia. I am guided only by my opinion and my feelings from the plot and if my feelings are telling me that something is off, I will not turn a blind eye to this and go against myself. Yes, my methods may be a bit radical and you may call it disrespectful but that's the way it is and thats how I tend to get attached to a characters, despite how RopeDrink been telling me you shouldnt take them as if they are real people, I do often get so attached to the characters that these connections can be called "real people connections". Hence why my little protestation took place. I do not want to see Ryne in the story of my character, I dont want to give her a chance to prove herself because I dont think I will ever be able to see her as her own character, I will always see her as a "that girl which replaced Minfilia". Moreover considering the fact how much I liked Minfilia character and didnt want her to depart.

And yeah, still can't wrap my head why Thancred accepted this, it was so out of his character and felt so stretched. You may call it a character progression but I saw it as an attempt to pull the plot and make you accept Ryne as a successor since even Thancred accepted her.

[LineageRazor]

I do not want to see Ryne in the story of my character, I dont want to give her a chance to prove herself because I dont think I will ever be able to see her as her own character, I will always see her as a "that girl which replaced Minfilia". Moreover considering the fact how much I liked Minfilia character and didnt want her to depart.

You understand, then, that you are using Ryne as a scapegoat for the real target of your ire - the decision by the writers to write Minfillia out of the storyline? Within the storyline, it was Minfillia's choice to sacrifice herself for Ryne, and if Minfillia knew that you despised Ryne for it, she would be saddened, indeed. Hydaelyn, too, had a large part to play in Minfillia's fate, and Minfillia considered her to be a dear friend and ally. Ryne's desire to live is also pretty understandable; the situation she was in was utterly unfair. She never asked to be the Oracle of Light, and neither had any of her predecessors.

As for Thancred... His emotional struggle and eventual acceptance are understandable, as well. He was protective of Minfillia - but also knew that the very last thing she would want would be for another to die for her own sake. He'd also had years to get to know Ryne as a human being, and in Thancred's mind an ideal solution would be for both to live - but, unfortunately, that wasn't possible. In the end, he chose to respect Minfillia's opinions. You mentioned that you couldn't understand his decision, as his feelings toward Minfillia were similar to yours. You see Ryne as nothing more than a symbol of what you lost, and despise her for it. You wonder why Thancred doesn't despise her, as well (and Ryne was certainly expecting him to). Because he did not, you consider him to be poorly written and out-of-character. The difference, though, is that he had had the opportunity to get to know Ryne, an opportunity you never had. He had traveled with her, had conversations with her, eaten with her, fought beside her, trained her - she had become a precious person to him, just as Minfillia was a precious person. He did not want either to die, but the fact that one of the two survived did not change how precious the survivor was. Thancred has a beef, but it's not with Ryne. It's with the unfairness of the world that put his precious people into that position. (In other words, he's rightfully upset with the writers, not the characters. Thancred, in fact, would be wondering how YOU could heap the blame on Ryne! Ryne is a good girl.)

Basically, the writers wanted to ramp up the drama, and did so at Minfillia's expense. You wouldn't be the first to put down a book because you found a plot twist to be too tragic to take. A good story DOES get you emotionally involved; it could be seen as a primary purpose, in fact. The downside is that on occasion, some folks get a little TOO deeply involved, can't handle the writers' decisions, and nope on out. If that's the case for you, then it is what it is. Still, you have my sympathies - you're missing out on a good read.

[Riastrad]

Ryne is by no means a bad character. She is however a plot device. This shouldn't be a surprise for us considering that SE will make a new character and kill them off in the same patch if it will continue the plot (Moenbryda for example). She needs time to grow and evolve but I fear that it will come at a cost. It is a slippery slope from wanting to become stronger to being whiny and constantly having self doubt be a defining character trait. Thancred and Urianger talk about how they will eventually leave the first when they find a way to return to the source, and both are trying to teach Ryne everything they can before that happens. It is a nice sentiment, but also a bittersweet one considering we lost a close friend (who by the way promised to come back) in another world, only to have the girl she sacrificed everything for, remain behind after we all leave. I'm worried that all this focus on Ryne will inevitable come to naught if/when she needs to stay on the first. Look at Lyse, she isn't even a scion anymore and was not called to the first with the rest of us. All the build up of her character and she is not even mentioned in Shadowbringers.

Of course time travel being such a focus of this expansion, I would not be surprised if a drastic change to previous events took place. We are getting New Game plus for a reason, and seeing the duty finder being worked into the story was a shock.

Antoine, if you truly liked Minfilia, watch the cutscenes with Ryne. She is the key to any hope of having Minfilia come back. I am right there with you in wanting her to return but the hatred towards Ryne's character is in my opinion unwarranted. Minfilia was her Ardbert. They are both of the same soul.

[RopeDrink]

And yeah, still can't wrap my head why Thancred accepted this, it was so out of his character and felt so stretched.

No. This is your bitterness over Minfilia's outcome overshadowing what was actually presented. Thancred's reaction was entirely appropriate, as was the entire emotion-based arc he went through as a result of the whole situation.

[Hezzlocks]

No. This is your bitterness over Minfilia's outcome overshadowing what was actually presented. Thancred's reaction was entirely appropriate, as was the entire emotion-based arc he went through as a result of the whole situation.

Exactly. If there is anything we've learned about Thancred over the course of the game it's that he isn't one to blame others for things that wasn't their fault. He'll blame villains, he'll blame himself, but he won't blame others unless they specifically are responsible, and even then he won't hold a grudge. Hell, Thancred was indirectly responsible for the massacre at the Waking Sands and the capture of the Scions when he was possessed by Lahabrea. He knows what it's like to feel guilty over something not really his fault.

I never once believed that he blamed or hated Ryne. He likely resented her, sure, and he would have really struggled with the knowledge that it was her or Minfilia, but he wouldn't have hated her. If anything, he probably hated and blamed himself for not being there for Minfilia, for failing her. Ever since the Goobue, he's dedicated himself to her. Ever since Lahabrea, he's failed to protect her at every turn. And now, the only way he could save her would be to give up on an innocent girl, something he knew Minfilia wouldn't want anyway.

His sudden revelation wasn't suddenly forgiving or choosing Ryne, it's realizing that it was Ryne's decision, not anyone elses, and whatever she chose, it's what Minfilia would want. You'll notice that Thancred never once told her to choose herself. He also never told her to choose Minfilia. He apologized for everything left unsaid and told her the decision is hers to make and no one else should ever make it for her. That is both an extremely neutral thing to say, as well as an indication that whatever she chooses, it's ok, he has made his peace.

[Vidu]

Another point about "Minfilia is useless/doesn't fight/gets kidnapped constantly!" is that the first time it happened, Urianger and Papalymo did got both kidnaped as well, and both where more than capable to defend themselves, but they didn't because they did know better to not do that.

Yes, others get kidnapped to but to me this is like the "Tataru doesnt fight either!" argument: All other characters who are involved in being kidnapped are shown as active and capable characters throughout the rest of the game. And that doesnt translate to physical strength! I dont remember if we see Urianger fight all that much in ARR but we dont need to since hes presented to us as a well educated scholar with a waste knowledge that hes providing us with. At the same time Minfilia is sending us to him whenever we need a more complexe explantion of something.
Something similar goes for Papalymo, even though he has a stronger emphasis on being a capable mage.

But my point is, yet again, that most other characters are shown to do more than standing around and being kidnapped. The problem isnt the kidnapping-part, the problem is the lack of anything else. The problem is that Minfilia is only ever described as being super-important but not shown this way, but as a passive character through and through. Thats whats turning her into the damsel in distress, not the actualy kidnapping. You can obviously decide that thats not bothering you and that you still like her - you can even like her because of it!
But at least for me the wjole kidnapping-thing is the tip of the iceberg for a character who doesnt do much... except getting kidnapped - while other characters are doing lots of stuff and being shown doing that... and being kidnapped.

[YianKutku]

Yes, others get kidnapped to but to me this is like the "Tataru doesnt fight either!" argument: All other characters who are involved in being kidnapped are shown as active and capable characters throughout the rest of the game. And that doesnt translate to physical strength! I dont remember if we see Urianger fight all that much in ARR but we dont need to since hes presented to us as a well educated scholar with a waste knowledge that hes providing us with. At the same time Minfilia is sending us to him whenever we need a more complexe explantion of something.
Something similar goes for Papalymo, even though he has a stronger emphasis on being a capable mage.

But my point is, yet again, that most other characters are shown to do more than standing around and being kidnapped. The problem isnt the kidnapping-part, the problem is the lack of anything else. The problem is that Minfilia is only ever described as being super-important but not shown this way, but as a passive character through and through. Thats whats turning her into the damsel in distress, not the actualy kidnapping. You can obviously decide that thats not bothering you and that you still like her - you can even like her because of it!
But at least for me the wjole kidnapping-thing is the tip of the iceberg for a character who doesnt do much... except getting kidnapped - while other characters are doing lots of stuff and being shown doing that... and being kidnapped.

I did find it rather odd that there was a great deal of pointing out in the 4.x story that a lot of the success of the Scions is due to the connections and networking that Minfilia had cultivated when she was around.

It felt suspiciously like the writers only just noticed that they never actually said what Minfilia was doing back in 2.0, with everyone assuming that surely someone else had handled writing it up, and only afterwards did they realize that no, nobody wrote it up.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Hey all again lol. You may call it necroposting but I really took a huge break off forums and game to study and work taking a lot of space on my plate so didnt really have time to answer. And I think I just dont want this thread to die out so here I am again x)

As for Thancred... His emotional struggle and eventual acceptance are understandable, as well.

I loved you answer and point of view. I even liked it, something I rarely do to my opponent's comments. I still have a few things to say about what you said tho.

Its not me who are using Ryne is a scapegoat, its writers who made her a scapegoat. Its was just not really visible because it turned out everyone fell in love with Ryne and everyone hated Minfilia so it was a good exchange for 90% of the community. Like Riastrad said, she is a plot device. Writers just didnt know what to do with Minfilia, they came up with this "Hydaelyn's vessel" thing to shut her down for almost two expansions but in ShB it surfaced again. Like, okay, we dealt with her for two expansions but now, considering the flow of the plot, we need to somehow bring her back in one form or another. We can't just continue to keep her "somewhere over there" 'n pretend nothing happened. And considering that they didn't know how to bring her back or how to tie her in into the plot or let them both live, they removed Minfilia from the story completely by letting her die. The simplest solution in all literature examples, but it also indicates writing impotence. And I quite frankly can't understand why you people keep defending poor writing. Guess hate for Minfilia is still a thing.

And about Thancred. Why I don't understand his eventual acceptance is because of how rushed it was. Listen, it was shown throughout half of ShB how cold he is towards her, how hard he struggle to even bear her company. Yes, he was protective of her, he saved her from imprisonment twice etc. That all was solely because his deep heart's desire for his Minfilia to come back. Writers just didnt want to show Thancred as a complete asshole, thus made him withstand this emotional battle by wanting his Minfilia to come back and not outright proposing to this child to give up on her life. He was on a verge tho. I loved this, it was well-thought and well-written. But then, after all this emotional struggle, by a snap of fingers, he respects Ryne and considering her as a full-fledged successor of Minfilia. Like, why? In a cutscene before you despised her, now you respect her? Even more funny that a cutscene before he fought Ranjit, fell on the ground and told to his Minfilia that he loves her. And in the next cutscene you are happy to wave her goodbye?

It reminds me of what I love to call "Naruto brainwashing syndrome". I don't know if you ever watched Naruto but I guess you have a general idea. The main thing about this syndrome is no matter how embittered and terrible the main villain of a certain arc are, Naruto can bring him back on good path just by exchanging some few words. Good example of this is Pain. Pain was a fearsome villain who experienced a lot of pain in his childhood (hence the nickname) and turned to believe that the only way humans could understand one another was through shared pain, thus showed no hesitation in obliterating the Leaf village, Naruto's home village. It was absolutely impossible to think that villain of this magnitude could become good again. Yet, when Naruto eventually found him and exchanged just a few words about his past and what he had experienced and how he withstanded and remained with his sanity intact, Pain got turned onto good path again, he even sacrificed himself to resurrect that village people he killed. And this trope lasts throughout all anime, sometimes Naruto doesnt even have to fight a villain, just speak with him and no matter how evil he was, now he's as good and as pure as a paladin. Its better to watch some examples of it though, I am pretty bad at describing lol.

So yeah, that's what I felt when I saw how they dealt with Thancred in this situation. That's why I said it felt so out of place and stretched. He didnt even got a chance to meet with Minfilia, only our characted did, I mean maybe I could understand if it was truly her wish to let Ryne continue living and if she had a chance to say it to him directly. Say a few parting words, perhaps? I would understand his eventual decision then. But out of nothing? After showing so much bitterness towards Ryne and made us thinking: "Yeah, he def hates her". Like, what happened, did Naruto appear and talk you out of this path?

Yup, they did ramp up the drama. But its a drama only for those few who actually liked Minfilia. Its not a drama for those who disliked or was meh about her, for them it was just "another minor character passing away" sort of thing. And it was justified in their eyes because of how cool Ryne turned out to be. How cute and awesome she is. And how better she is at everything than Minfilia was. I just didnt want Minfilia to go like this, to be remembered just as an annoying quest giver and eye candy. My wishes will never come true.