I thought Yoshi wants healer to focus on healing only..

[Liam_Harper]

The challenge I think devs are facing here is that they want healer damage as an option, but not a requirement. The problem is that players make it a requirement to compensate for how bad their DPS is.

Not true.

Using the website that shall not be named on encounters on EX and above at minimum ilv, if you took the required raid dps and removed healers from the equation, the dps would all have to be playing at 95th to over 100th percentile. We're talking better than padded world first players. This often isn't realistically possible and is far more than intended for EX.

Whatever Yoshi intends, his design team have accounted for healers doing some damage.

[Kazrah]

Not true.

Using the website that shall not be named on encounters on EX and above at minimum ilv, if you took the required raid dps and removed healers from the equation, the dps would all have to be playing at 95th to over 100th percentile. We're talking better than padded world first players. This often isn't realistically possible and is far more than intended for EX.

So git gud scrub? Seriously, if you're doing things because you're at minimum ilvl (which is surprisingly low this expansion) and expect healers to pick up your slack on top of cleaning up your mess, then clearly you just want a carry.

Honestly, with the changes to make tanks easier to play, giving them more damage options while removing a good portion of their defensive cooldowns all while having mobs hit harder....it all makes me wonder why tanks are still being given mounts in the first place when it should be healers instead for having to do their job AND the DPSs job at the same time. I'm not saying "healers shouldn't dps", I'm saying that it should not be a requirement and that DPS players (and maybe tank players too) should git gud.

[Hash_Browns]

So git gud scrub? Seriously, if you're doing things because you're at minimum ilvl (which is surprisingly low this expansion) and expect healers to pick up your slack on top of cleaning up your mess, then clearly you just want a carry.

Honestly, with the changes to make tanks easier to play, giving them more damage options while removing a good portion of their defensive cooldowns all while having mobs hit harder....it all makes me wonder why tanks are still being given mounts in the first place when it should be healers instead for having to do their job AND the DPSs job at the same time. I'm not saying "healers shouldn't dps", I'm saying that it should not be a requirement and that DPS players (and maybe tank players too) should git gud.

"Get gud" doesn't work here when a bunch of DPS can't even reach the DPS needed for E4S if we don't factor in healer damage. AS in the classes just aren't strong enough to get passed the enrage timer.

If you want to beat the Savage enrage timers currently, either healers need to DPS, AND be good at it - or DPS all need to be BLM/DRG/Monk

[Kazrah]

"Get gud" doesn't work here when a bunch of DPS can't even reach the DPS needed for E4S if we don't factor in healer damage. AS in the classes just aren't strong enough to get passed the enrage timer.

If you want to beat the Savage enrage timers currently, either healers need to DPS, AND be good at it - or DPS all need to be BLM/DRG/Monk

It's also content intended to last at least five or six months. It's the fault of the players for trying to rush it with minimal gear, where healer damage becomes less of an option and more of a competitive edge.

Also, it's a human balance psychology things. Imagine if you live with 7 other peoples who hold each others equal, and technically only 4 of you have to work to get enough food for all 8. Do you think the group gonna last long if the other 4 just adopt a mindset of "well, if the other 4 works hard enough there is enough food for all of us, so I don't have to work for food" ? Saying "healer DPS shouldn't be necessary for clear" is the same-thing, it maybe, it maybe not, but the point is equal contribution.

This is a faulty comparison because it assumes that those four other people are doing exactly nothing when they could be doing other things that provide some other benefit to the group like doing things around the house. It's like saying that every single in hunter-gatherer societies has to hunt or else the group fails, which has never been the case except for cases in which hunters aren't able to perform their role effectively.

What about the healer who has to heal non-stop because the tank doesn't know what a cooldown is? Does that make them bad because they don't have any breathing room to do damage? You're basically saying that they are bad given your arguments as well as those requiring healers to do damage.

[Hash_Browns]

It's also content intended to last at least five or six months. It's the fault of the players for trying to rush it with minimal gear, where healer damage becomes less of an option and more of a competitive edge.



This is a faulty comparison because it assumes that those four other people are doing exactly nothing when they could be doing other things that provide some other benefit to the group like doing things around the house. It's like saying that every single in hunter-gatherer societies has to hunt or else the group fails, which has never been the case except for cases in which hunters aren't able to perform their role effectively.

What about the healer who has to heal non-stop because the tank doesn't know what a cooldown is? Does that make them bad because they don't have any breathing room to do damage? You're basically saying that they are bad given your arguments as well as those requiring healers to do damage.

I think you are missing the point.
Like, completely.

The Savage content was designed to be able to be cleared with the minimum iLvl requirement. The 460 gear wouldn't even provide enough of a buff to pick up the healers slack.

I say 460 because you need to do the savage content in order to get that gear upgraded to 470, which still wouldn't be enough.

Unless you somehow think we should bring 4 BLMs for all content, and ignore other DPS classes. That is 4 BLMs playing the class perfectly, as well as 2 tanks playing perfectly - all of them in a full set of 460 gear, or 450 penta-melded gear. As well as only bringing 2 ASTs because they, would need to support the BLMs with cards, and would have enough time since the fight would be 50-70% downtime for them where they do nothing but emote.

[Urthdigger]

This is a faulty comparison because it assumes that those four other people are doing exactly nothing when they could be doing other things that provide some other benefit to the group like doing things around the house. It's like saying that every single in hunter-gatherer societies has to hunt or else the group fails, which has never been the case except for cases in which hunters aren't able to perform their role effectively.

What about the healer who has to heal non-stop because the tank doesn't know what a cooldown is? Does that make them bad because they don't have any breathing room to do damage? You're basically saying that they are bad given your arguments as well as those requiring healers to do damage.

No, it's quite an apt comparison. Nobody that pushes for healer DPS is saying that healers shouldn't try to keep the party alive above all else. We just acknowledge the reality that, as player skill and gear rises, there are considerable portions where no healing is required. Continuing to heal when the tank barely has a scratch on them isn't being useful, even standing around doing nothing is a better option than that. But people like you feel that healers shouldn't sully their hotbars with those filthy DPS spells. You'd rather sit around idle or heal in the most inefficient manner you can possibly find solely to look busy. The thought of ever bothering to do more than the bare minimum never crosses your mind: After all, you're healing the incoming damage and there's no way to heal more for that. "Oh, what's that? Help with dealing damage? Please, that sounds like their problem."

[Raven2014]

What about the healer who has to heal non-stop because the tank doesn't know what a cooldown is? Does that make them bad because they don't have any breathing room to do damage? You're basically saying that they are bad given your arguments as well as those requiring healers to do damage.

Then I'll tell you one thing, a party like that will get absolutely nowhere unless they have echo + overgeared. I love how people keep making up these extreme example as their counter argument, because they are utterly meaningless.

- A tank that does not know how to dodge mechanic or mitigation is a BAD tank.
- A DPS that does not know how dodge mechanic or do proper rotation is a BAD DPS.
- A healer that does not know how to heal and DPS is a BAD healer.

If a party has more than one of these members then any of your arguments is moot, since it will not reach the goal. Ultimately the goal of any party is to reach a clear, and in order achieve that EVERYONE must be able to play their role competently, that's the point of equal contribution. Both of your argument:

- I'm expected to DPS because the DPS themselves are bad.
- I can't heal because the tank is bad.

Frankly are just you think too highly of yourself as a healer. Nobody babysit anyone else, and you're definitely not a babysitter, so again stop thinking too highly about your own role. I am a healer, and in the party I fully expected my tanks and DPSs to perform their role with reasonable competency, just like they can expect the same from me, and that's both keeping them alive and contribute to the DPS. Because I'll emphasize again in case you forget and we get into a merry-go-round argument: if a party perform to task, there is very little healing involved that a none-DPS healer is just a dead weight. There is a reason why eventually people have enough enough gear and familiarity to the fights, it's possible to solo heal some fight. So in a sense, the presence of a 2nd healer is already a very comfortable buffer in term of healing.

[HyoMinPark]

So git gud scrub? Seriously, if you're doing things because you're at minimum ilvl (which is surprisingly low this expansion) and expect healers to pick up your slack on top of cleaning up your mess, then clearly you just want a carry.

Honestly, with the changes to make tanks easier to play, giving them more damage options while removing a good portion of their defensive cooldowns all while having mobs hit harder....it all makes me wonder why tanks are still being given mounts in the first place when it should be healers instead for having to do their job AND the DPSs job at the same time. I'm not saying "healers shouldn't dps", I'm saying that it should not be a requirement and that DPS players (and maybe tank players too) should git gud.

With current Savage, there is no option to “git gud”. Players simply don’t have the gear to pass the enrage if the healers sit on their thumbs the entire fight. It’s to be expected when players attempt the content Week 1, because we are all at minimum item level right now. Not by choice—we just haven’t gotten an opportunity to gear up since gearing is gated.

All that said, why are the DPS told to “git gud” just so healers can AFK for 50% or more of the fight?

[Connor]

I'm not saying "healers shouldn't dps", I'm saying that it should not be a requirement and that DPS players (and maybe tank players too) should git gud.

I get what you’re saying, healers shouldn’t feel pressure to DPS in normal content because ultimately it’s unnecessary. In Savage progression though, it’s through maximising DPS to clear the content where you couldn’t if you just left it to the DPS that a healer ‘gits gud’ in the first place in current high end content. It’s unfortunate, but this trend won’t ever go away, so healers in high end content will always be expected to contribute the DPS required to avoid enrage in savage content shortly after release, and should go into the fights with this expectation. There isn’t anything else for healers to contribute or maximise except DPS anyway once they meet the minuscule healing requirements and plan out healing ability usage anyway