Healers can't outdamage competent tanks

[tikiwiki]

using first week prog clears to say healers cant out dps tanks is very foolish people are playing safe for prog as we clear more healer damage is gonna go up and up while tanks wont go up as hard since they dont have anything like reducing healing gcds to boost their dps as much

[ElroyDrundan]

The damage itself isn't the concern, but moreso the conditions associated with it.

The skill floor and ceiling for healer DPS is inexistent. DoT + oGCD damage into spam cast damage ability repeat.

Healers have minimal to no risk while using their damage spells. While potency isn't too comparable, look at Scholar Biolysis it's a 60 potency instant DoT for 400 MP. Summoner Bio is 40 potency DoT for 600 MP and Miasma III is 40 + 40 potency DoT for 500 MP with a 2.5sec cast.
Broil III is an unconditional 280 potency, while a Summoner has to have both Bio and Miasma for Ruin III to have 200 potency.

Just did a test where my melded 449 Gunbreaker used Blasting Zone, 800 potency 30s CD, with Titania weapon. The damage was 17k. Swapped to my unmelded 420 White Mage, with 418 weapon from last dungeon, used Assize, 400 potency AoE damage + Heal + 5% MP regain 45s CD, for 17.5k on each target hit.

It's just a bit silly when a Healer can do those kinds of numbers without it being complicated or being very taxing on their resources. Meanwhile, the only DPS function that separates Tanks from actual melee DPS jobs are positionals.

Have you ever raided with a healer? Cuz from what you said I don't think so.

No, there are no dps rotations on a healer, the skill comes in the mixing of healing and dpsing, using all the oGCDs to free up GCDs for dpsing, but at the same time knowing the fight so you have them saved up when necessary. Then you have the random oh crap moments where folks are taking needless dmg or dying. I will grant you that as the boss fight moves to farm status, the opportunity for dpsing increases decently. Though everyone's dps improves in that case as they learns how to maximize up time on the boss, rotations are easier to keep up etc.

Lets talk tanks? Are you telling me there is some kind of amazing button pushing going on for off tanks, tanks were made even easier as not much stance dancing anymore, just swapping stance when boss swapping. You are off tanking? do your dps rotation (which isn't that hard). Tanking? do your dps rotation while using cooldowns appropriately.

I think looking at the difference between the the 75% and the 25% is interesting as that shows the difference between the very good and not as good.

Would I like there to be a different damage model where more healing was required, yes I would. That isn't going to happen though, least not this expansion. Why shouldn't a very good healer, who is excellent at managing oGCDs , dps uptime etc do alright dps? They can't just nerf dps as there is more being done than savage raids. They could up the incoming damage so there isn't as much time to dps, though they would have to adjust our mana pool etc...

[Billythepancake]

Have you ever raided with a healer? Cuz from what you said I don't think so.

No, there are no dps rotations on a healer, the skill comes in the mixing of healing and dpsing, using all the oGCDs to free up GCDs for dpsing, but at the same time knowing the fight so you have them saved up when necessary. Then you have the random oh crap moments where folks are taking needless dmg or dying. I will grant you that as the boss fight moves to farm status, the opportunity for dpsing increases decently. Though everyone's dps improves in that case as they learns how to maximize up time on the boss, rotations are easier to keep up etc.

Lets talk tanks? Are you telling me there is some kind of amazing button pushing going on for off tanks, tanks were made even easier as not much stance dancing anymore, just swapping stance when boss swapping. You are off tanking? do your dps rotation (which isn't that hard). Tanking? do your dps rotation while using cooldowns appropriately.

I think looking at the difference between the the 75% and the 25% is interesting as that shows the difference between the very good and not as good.

Would I like there to be a different damage model where more healing was required, yes I would. That isn't going to happen though, least not this expansion. Why shouldn't a very good healer, who is excellent at managing oGCDs , dps uptime etc do alright dps? They can't just nerf dps as there is more being done than savage raids. They could up the incoming damage so there isn't as much time to dps, though they would have to adjust our mana pool etc...

I have raided as a healer, and while SB SCH didn't have the most complex rotation in the world, it felt better to use that in alphascape than it feels to use broil x infinity in Eden.

[LariaKirin]

The damage itself isn't the concern, but moreso the conditions associated with it.

The skill floor and ceiling for healer DPS is inexistent. DoT + oGCD damage into spam cast damage ability repeat.

Healers have minimal to no risk while using their damage spells. While potency isn't too comparable, look at Scholar Biolysis it's a 60 potency instant DoT for 400 MP. Summoner Bio is 40 potency DoT for 600 MP and Miasma III is 40 + 40 potency DoT for 500 MP with a 2.5sec cast.

It's just a bit silly when a Healer can do those kinds of numbers without it being complicated or being very taxing on their resources. Meanwhile, the only DPS function that separates Tanks from actual melee DPS jobs are positionals.

No, the damage itself is the concern, as a principle. Healers are closer in DPS to tanks than ever before and gear will only close that gap. I think healer DPS should be lower simply out of concern for encounter DPS checks.

As for skill floor and skill ceiling, of course they exist. You would know if you played any caster to a decent enough level. Since you went ahead and insulted healers like that, Mr. easy mode melee DPS with tank privilege, let me condescendingly explain to you how casting/healing works.

• Casting a spell commits you to 2.5 seconds of no movement. If you interrupt your cast, you have lost that GCD. How do you optimize this? By optimizing movement, of course. How do you do this? By knowing how long it takes for that AoE to go off in order to decide if you can get away with a slidecast. By knowing the fight well enough to pre-position for any fixed-location AoE and future movement.
• Casting a 2.5 second spell takes an entire GCD. Shocking, I know. This means you can't just willy nilly throw out your OGCDs as if you were a tank. What does this mean for healers? Well, you know that massive raidwide that brought us all to 10% HP? Yeah, that one. My Biolysis is expiring in 6 seconds. Can I get away with delaying my OGCD heals until I have to refresh it, so I can weave them in without clipping my GCD or losing DPS with Ruin II?
• Speaking of weaving, let me just Ruin II + Energy Drain + select tank + Excog + select boss in 1 GCD, otherwise I'm delaying my next GCD. I know that quickly switching targets is taken for granted and doesn't even come to mind when you only have to care about one target for 99% of the fight. The only reason I bring this up is because it is mechanically more complex than any weaving any other job has to do (Well, tanks do it too. Once or twice per fight... Potentially. Do tanks even Shirk anymore after they trivialized enmity?).
• Speaking of healing, can I get rid of this one Succor safely and replace it with Broil for extra DPS? Oh hey, my co-healer has an ability that would simplify this and allow both of us to get an extra DPS GCD in. We should plan out our pool of abilities for this encounter. Gee, sometimes I wish I was a tank ... just doing my "high skill ceiling" rotation, not depending on others for my performance, not having to interrupt everything because some idiot DPS or tank didn't dodge or forgot a cooldown.

Think about that while you slide freely around the boss doing your dummy rotation.
Here's a secret: doing your rotation is not the skill ceiling, it's the minimum requirement. Maximizing DPS uptime is what everyone has to do in order to approach the skill ceiling.

Healer damage abilities aren't engaging, there is no way to improve when there is downtime.

And there is for tanks or DPS? As far as I can tell, boss mechanic downtime is literally a dummy phase for any job.

In addition to that, healer has another type of downtime - healing downtime. And that you can improve. By creating it.

[Lagomorph]

In Stormblood, White Mage also had the highest striking dummy DPS. It was never able to realize this potential inside a raid environment, however.

Then this kind of contradicts your initial post, doesn't it? Posting this a few days after savage is released also doesn't mean much, especially when the fights are not even close to optimized yet. How do you know that this will remain true once people have more gear + experience with the current savage fights?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I don't know where this idea came from that healers have to be doing less than tanks.
Healers will naturally do less DPS because they can't always hit the boss, abd that's fine, but I think it's an issue when people look at a healer DPSing for more than a tank is a problem.