Perma shelved my DRK: No role, no idenity, no lore, no worthwhile skills, no fun

[Absimiliard]

I don't know if you guys have noticed this or not, but uh... SE has been making the classes more approachable on purpose. Making them readily accessible to everyone is better business design overall. We're probably never getting any sort of complexity added back to DRK. Instead, we need to focus on getting its weaknesses shored up a bit. I.e. Living Dead being garbage and TBN's scaling being so good that you eventually reach a point that even tankbusters can't pop it.

[Duskane]

I don't know if you guys have noticed this or not, but uh... SE has been making the classes more approachable on purpose. Making them readily accessible to everyone is better business design overall. We're probably never getting any sort of complexity added back to DRK. Instead, we need to focus on getting its weaknesses shored up a bit. I.e. Living Dead being garbage and TBN's scaling being so good that you eventually reach a point that even tankbusters can't pop it.

well i think more people want some identity back or at least the speed
Delerium being IR is just such a low blow

[Reynhart]

Making them readily accessible to everyone is better business design overall.

Making all of them close to breaindead is, IMO, a bad move because your hardcore players don't have a class that fit their need anymore.
It's the same move as replacing Savage by a few more expert dungeons.

[Absimiliard]

Making all of them close to breaindead is, IMO, a bad move because your hardcore players don't have a class that fit their need anymore.
It's the same move as replacing Savage by a few more expert dungeons.

Agreed. And luckily for us, the only tanks that are really brain dead right now are DRK and WAR. They should all be readily accessible, but DRK right now is uh... special.

[Shurrikhan]

Agreed. And luckily for us, the only tanks that are really brain dead right now are DRK and WAR. They should all be readily accessible, but DRK right now is uh... special.

Oddly enough I'm finding DRK a lot more annoying to play than GNB and PLD (which I leveled on my Tank alt; just made DRK rq for Ex roulettes on Healer alt) if only because I keep... falling asleep when playing it. That and the MP bar being effectively a gauge bar but unintuitively bound to the parameter bar that only 5 jobs really even need to track, instead of being freely moveable to beside my Blood gauge...

Until recent latency from ISP conflicts with the SE servers since 5.05, GNB was smooth as butter to play and it's always been incredibly easy to keep track of everything. DRK just feels so lazy by comparison that it can get kinda easy to slip up at times.

[Absimiliard]

DRK just feels so lazy by comparison that it can get kinda easy to slip up at times.

That is a problem that I have been experiencing as well. It's so easy even in spite of its clunk that you'll make mistakes as your attention begins to wander. S'why I've mostly been sticking to PLD and GNB lately. The two are technically mechanically stronger (PLD for its defense and utility, GNB for its raw damage and utility) in some ways, but that takes a backseat to the fact that they are actually still enjoyable to play.

[Dragonkat]

So after playing more with gunbreaker to 68 and having just gotten heart of stone.... I'm finding myself still way too salty about this. A thought I had I'd like opinions on.

maybe an unfair comparison, but in terms of mini cooldowns i'll take a solid 15% cut to damage for a full seven seconds that can also double as a shield over the contradiction for paltry dps buffs. Minus the 1/3 of my total resource cost on top as the extra insult to me.

Hmmm I wonder if thats another difference that needs looking into, the fact GNB can pretty much bring it's full kit to bear whenever it wants without being hamstrung by insane mp costs that take far too long the recoup now for the gain you get? I mean the biggest attacks you have that would benifit from the increase either can't be used (flood) because of the cost. Or are limited to specific burst windows with warrior light cooldowns ahem, I mean Delirium. And your choice is get back MP with Q or or just take the free five hits for the joke of an mp gain with BS.

Could that be one other issue? The fact DRK's kit has been so cut there's nothing to really use while darkside is up? And it still feels to me like GNB puts out bigger numbers with more utility. I mean no mercy is double darkside's increase for a full 20 seconds. no cost. And is up 1/3 of the time anyway. But a darkside spender would need a solid 20-30 seconds of 123 combos and mp regen to get back the 3000 mp used. . . .

Of course this is also where unlike no mercy dark arts can be stored, but that takes again getting TBN to break, so we're back to the contradiction of choosing between either shield or overpowering damage without the sustain or the dps for it the way GNB can with it's 12-boom aoe + burst strike. Or the gnashing fang combo chain. and again you're either using it for dps, or you're using it to keep darkside up when needed... Provided you can egt TBN to even break in the window, which is an issue if you're overgeared to the point where even tank busters have issues.

Ugh maybe i'm just salty but it still feels like new DRK works too hard against itself to be effective.

[Shurrikhan]

Ugh maybe i'm just salty but it still feels like new DRK works too hard against itself to be effective.

In many ways, DRK fought itself hardest back in HW, and I kind of loved it for that. But yes, TBN does seem unfortunately... unintuitive, to be euphemistic, just as Living Dead will likely forever remain...
...Is it weird, though, that the non-mechanicness of Darkside kind of pisses me off even more than either of those equally glaring flaws?

And, let's be fair: You'd have to take what would have been 112% of your HP for HoS's mitigation to equal TBN's, despite TBN being available every 15 seconds, often able to intercept skills between the skills all other tanks can mitigate, while everyone else's is roughly 25 seconds. It's both far better, and more frequent... as long as you take enough damage.

[Lyth]

Until recent latency from ISP conflicts with the SE servers since 5.05, GNB was smooth as butter to play and it's always been incredibly easy to keep track of everything. DRK just feels so lazy by comparison that it can get kinda easy to slip up at times.

I'm always fascinated by how people consistently re-frame events in a way that supports their desired self-image. It's not "I make mistakes on DRK because I'm struggling to keep track of things," it's "I lose track of things because I'm thinking much too quickly and DRK's slow pace lulls me into a sense of complacency." Uh-huh.

I think you've just stumbled over one of the hallmarks of a resource-based job vs. a rotation-based job, though. Rotations can be executed on auto-pilot with repetition and practice. Resource management demands your attention, even while you're doing new mechanics. You don't notice it as much in simple fights, but it becomes painfully obvious in ones with any degree of complexity or new mechanics.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm always fascinated by how people consistently re-frame events in a way that supports their desired self-image. It's not "I make mistakes on DRK because I'm struggling to keep track of things," it's "I lose track of things because I'm thinking much too quickly and DRK's slow pace lulls me into a sense of complacency." Uh-huh.

I think you've just stumbled over one of the hallmarks of a resource-based job vs. a rotation-based job, though. Rotations can be executed on auto-pilot with repetition and practice. Resource management demands your attention, even while you're doing new mechanics. You don't notice it as much in simple fights, but it becomes painfully obvious in ones with any degree of complexity or new mechanics.

Except, I don't find the gameplay "lazy by comparison [to GNB]" in a way that would facilitate slipage in, say, extreme primal fights or when speedrunning dungeons or when raid (de)buffs are in play. Odd, that.

Yes, rotation-based jobs are easier to keep track of and auto-pilot than resource-based ones. Did I say otherwise? No, I said specifically that DRK (resource-based) is harder to keep track of, for me, than GNB (rotation-based). This is especially true, for me, when tired, bored, and/or annoyed.

Short of raid (de)buffs, I have TBN, and otherwise just vaguely managing MP and Blood. And, to me, that doesn't feel like all that much to command my attention (yes, command -- thereby facilitating attention) compared to GNB. What is so foreign and antithetical about this statement to you?

I could understand "I don't want a single bit more order via rotational fixture or similar designs, in what is currently almost complete flexibility, in my DRK!" And I'd respect that. But, would that be any less subjective a preference? Would your opinion on your own preferred playstyle be any less subjective than mine?