Perma shelved my DRK: No role, no idenity, no lore, no worthwhile skills, no fun

[Giubba]

And the patch notes are out and they did.....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
The fucking surprise, the absolute genius.

Enjoy 2 years of this shit I'm not gonna endure another stormblood waiting for changes that will never come

[shao32]

It can be a 50/50 thing or a bad thing. 50/50 if they are making big changes and anything that can appear could be equally worse or by a miracle fix DRK gameplay, and a bad thing is they choose to ignore DRK as usual and probably we only see changes on living dead as much which is the one I expect, 2 years of trash dark warrior.

[ADVSS]

It can be a 50/50 thing or a bad thing. 50/50 if they are making big changes and anything that can appear could be equally worse or by a miracle fix DRK gameplay, and a bad thing is they choose to ignore DRK as usual and probably we only see changes on living dead as much which is the one I expect, 2 years of trash dark warrior.

Pretty much, if they even touch LD. Heard they were "looking into it" so I guess theres some hope there. As far as what else they would do for/to DRK, its up in the air at the moment, if anything. They're not wrong, it is a functional tank, it does what tanks do, much less in some areas, but what can you do?

[shao32]

Keep conplainting, we won't get a change if we remain silent.

[Dragonkat]

This is again taking into account "the meta" which is assuming "DPS IS EVERYTHING". Some people... while few understand or want to acknowledge this... play the job for... idk.. "fun"? I know it's quite unheard of but some people actually used their MP for things like dark passenger rarely(meaning more than not at all), who liked protecting another party member with a TBN, or had loads of fun tanking masses in trash pulls for tons of Quietus/Abyssal Drain HP gain/etc madness.

You did have a choice, you only didn't if your mindset was only specifically to be as is a dps, when you're in fact a tank. This is speaking for most regular content in mind too, nothing hardcore or extreme that assumes people specifically play for savage/EX content and need to maximize the utmost potential possible. Your blackblood return for TBN felt more satisfying too since the skills that could use this weren't available to you nearly every 5 seconds of the fight, you had to earn those bloodspillers and it it was satisfying to.

THANK YOU

I'm fed up myself with the daily parser check who is where everything must be perfect savage raider mentality infecting the rest of the game. Even more so with the fact they seem to think they're the only ones who get any say in game balance. Looking at you too Lyth, take that oh you're doing a 70 roulette you know nothing attitude and [dark arts] your [dark arts] right back up your [dark arts] to make the meme. Last time I checked 70 was the top of the game pre ShB. And do you honestly think adding stalwart soul and that living DoT I mean shadow really address the core issues my OP was attempting to bring up?

Honestly it's that mentality that dark arts had to be spammed every time for MAXIMUM DPS RAWR! that I blame for part of these changes. No it didn't. It was a utility power that gave you options. Add a blind to DP, add extra potency to syphon at the -trade off- to not getting the MP you may need for another TBN instead if it breaks too soon and your quietus can't keep AD going (not that we have any of these problems now)

Again this is the big beef I have DRK has zero options now. Most of all it's risk vs reward factor. It's (the quite legit complaint) of being a warrior knock off. You pop Delirium when it's up for your burst window and that insulting MP non gain BS gives. Because you lack the resources to now properly mitigate mass pulls so quietus is a may as well not bother, given it's risk vs reward factor was trashed anyway.

Some of us do play for fun, and that does not instantly make us casual scrubs. It makes us people who enjoy the class for what it is, and what it was able to do before the gutting it suffered. See the joy of mass pulls with AD and Quietus. You didn't need to be optimized, you just needed to be effective. Trying to hide behind your cutesy "don't get triggered bro" crap doesn't change that fact. It just shows you don't have much a counter argument.

[Dragonkat]

That said, i'd like to share a convo I had with friends about this. This after playing a bit of GNB (night and day difference in fun factor!) When one who was playing a healer mentioned how easily TBN was breaking on trash mobs when i've had the opposite problem. Turning out the reason was said DRK was under geared.

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Me: Just trying to come at this from a different direction when i start thinking about brutal shell, which is shield and self heal built into one combo. But maybe not really the right thing to work off of as it's not a fair comparison to TBN, that'd be more nebula or camo.... Basically chicken and egg sorta. Its weird how DRK's shield contradicts itself. You want 0 damage uptime, but for full effect you want enough incoming damage to break the shield before the duration ends. Whereas something like nebula gets the full effect regardless. And maybe the shield break mechanic is flawed now to me (and was it always flawed?) because it's now such a 1 to 1 tradeoff where a good healer keeps even lesser armored DRK's up regardless. Instead of the much larger trade off where you could rake in a goodly amount of MP with old quietus if you played the cards right past the TBN cost, and for what was a more tanagible visible gain than darkside for 30 secs.

Friend 1: I mean You get a tangible reward for the shield not breaking, It's called 7 seconds of invulnerability, Because none of your HP was consumed in that window, And that is not perfectly efficient, But it's still 7 seconds the healer can DPS for

Me: right, but that's just it, other classes get a full effect for popping a cooldown, DRK has to say either i get 7 seconds of no damage, or i get less than but i get a damage buff. But why not just take the buff if the healer can keep me up -regardless- of my shield? 7 seconds would be maybe two dps healer casts? three? A well lined up flood would do how much damage in comparison?

Friend 1: ...I mean a healer can technically keep you up without you using any defensive. At all. In normal content you aren't actually required to use them. You should, But you can survive any incoming damage with just the passive 20% DR

Me: thats not my argument though. That's a matter of non debate, what i'm trying to get across and i feel you're missing the point on is buff vs buff and the situational uses during. And how TBN is flawed because of it's dual nature. And need to actively seek out more damage than it can handle for less gain then old DRK got.

and is the issue i can't pin down in my head is, "Is it the mechanic of the shield itself that's inherently flawed. Or was old DRK able to get so much more gain for a break we didn't really notice this?"

[Dragonkat]

Friend 2: Have you got a Dr Pepper situation going on? (after asking what he meant?)

Hee-hee. A term I coined from history. Mum picked me up at school one day, told me she'd gotten a soda I could have some of, but it was the worst root beer she'd ever tasted. I took a sip, thought, and replied, "That's because it's Dr Pepper."

Meaning, is the old concept of how DRK operated interfering with how it should work now?

Friend 3: that's a possibility.that said, DRK wanting to get damaged for output is thematic.

Me: Ding. or as I boiled it down to like you said. Was the shield the problem, or how the class/other skills interacting with it the problem? Doesn't matter if it's root beer or dr pepper if the cup is hot and you've got no ice
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Comparing DRK to GNB this is now where I feel the issue is. The kit really contradicts itself and doesn't mesh at all anymore. Plus the skills it needs for proper sustain have either been nerfed into the ground or put on such long cooldowns for low potency (hi AD) that they're useless as even an oh **** button because a mass pull is that much harder anyway without DP's DA blind mitigation (i've started resorting to arms length for the slow) on top of TBN being much harder to break if you're overgeared (hence why i think i needs a 3 sec increase if anything) and the payoff for a free dps hit and a marginal dps increase vs the blood gauge is much less of a reward for the risk. If anything giving Darkside an increase is an option too?

GNB though? Everything fits, it flows, it's -FUN- And the combos actually have meaning, or more to the point if we're honest feel like they have meaning. Plus you have the options to weave your cooldowns in a way sorely missing in dark. Not to mention the fact it got DRK's old scourge hit and an aoe dot on top in the 60's? As another friend put it. "It's like they took all the bits from other tanks to make a complete one."

I just wish they'd take another look at DRK, it doesn't work anymore compared to the others. I'm happy I found a tank I can enjoy because i like secondary roles for my FC. But it still grates I no longer enjoy the one I liked.

[Xan_Kriegor]

I do not think current DRK is that awful like some people say. It already has a decent CPM if compared to other tankers and an overall good mitigation kit. However, it could get some tweaks and gameplay changes.

First of all, the most important issue right now is the Blood Weapon duration. It must be the same as Delirium. This way, even players with high ping can get five hits consistently at 2.38 GCD.

Living Dead could be reworked. There are a lot of ideas on forums, I will not talk about it here.

My issue with the gameplay of DRK is mostly the Darkside management. It is not a good design because the skill that gives the 10% damage buff is the same skill that you always want to use just to damage even if the buff is already up (Edge of Shadows). Also, people often complain about the boring downtime DRK has right now while oGCDs are not available and DRK is pooling MP for the next burst.

To fix those issues, I propose some changes based on some ideas I have heard from other DRK players.

Changes:

Salted Earth:

Action removed.

Salted Earth was nerfed for Shadowbringers and it is just a bad skill right now. It could be removed to open space for a more interesting skill.

Stalwart Soul:

Action is now learned at Level 52 instead of Level 72.

The removal of Salted Earth would allow our AoE combo action to be learned earlier. This will fix a problem DRK has that its AoE combo is only available at a high level while PLD and WAR have it earlier. Of course, Stalwart Soul will not give blood at level 52, it will start to provide blood only on Level 62 when Blackblood trait is learned. The mana provided for this action will help players to use more often Flood of Darkness at lower levels.

Edge of Darkness/Shadows:

These actions no longer grant Darkside effect.

This would be the major change. EoS/EoD would be used for pure damage, while FoS/FoD would be used for AoE situations AND to get Darkside effect up when needed. This would add more complexity to our Darkside management and will enhance the decision making in the Job. Of course, this change will result in potency loss, but it will be addressed later.

New Action Level 72:

Delivers an attack with a potency of 900 to target and all enemies nearby it. Can only be executed while under the effect of Delirium. Effect fades upon execution.
Additional Effect: Grants Darkside, increasing damage dealt by 10%
Duration: 30s
Extends Darkside duration by 30s to a maximum of 60s.

To fill the spot left open to the Job action of Level 72 we could get a combo finisher to the Delirium burst. This could also be an alternative way to up Darkside buff. So, now players have two ways to do it: either use a Flood of Shadows instead a Edge of Shadows or waiting for the next Delirium burst to regain it. Again, this will add more decision making to the DRK gameplay.

Abyssal Drain:

Recast reduced from 60s to 30s.

Carve and Spit:

Recast reduced from 60s to 30s.

These reductions will provide filler oGCDs to weave during DRK downtime. They are also compensations to the removal of Salted Earth. Carve and Spit with a shorter CD will help DRK's MP generation and Abyssal Drain will provide more self heal since it will be only 30 seconds recast.

I have not done the maths about these changes regarding its potencies, so it could need some potencies changes.

In short, with these changes I think most of the DRK gameplay problems would be addressed and it would become a more interesting Job to play. The Delirium burst will have some PLD flavor in there, so it will be more of a mix from WAR and PLD bursts instead of a "copy of IR" as a lot of people complain about. And the Darkside gauge would be useful now, since we will not spamming FoS mindlessly. The Job's CPM would be slightly higher than now, maybe it will reach GNB's CPM.

So, what do you guys think? Would you guys like these changes ?

[Sancho_Nyanta]

I think that they would have people saying that Drk is biting Pld and War's style instead of just War.

I would like to see the CD reductions to help deal with the down time. Also I'm not sure if the DPS loss having to use FoS vs EoS and SE would balance the increase of doubling C&S, AD and increased uses of EoS due to the MP gains of C&S.

[Xan_Kriegor]

I think that they would have people saying that Drk is biting Pld and War's style instead of just War.

I know. No Job is truly unique. One can always find similarities between actions among Jobs. However, having some similarities with different Jobs may create a unique kit, whereas having a lot of similarities with only one Job helps with the feeling of being a clone. DRK having some actions similar to PLD, other ones similar to WAR , high CPM, Mana and Darkside management would make the Job as a WHOLE really different from other tanks despite sharing specific similarities.

I would like to see the CD reductions to help deal with the down time. Also I'm not sure if the DPS loss having to use FoS vs EoS and SE would balance the increase of doubling C&S, AD and increased uses of EoS due to the MP gains of C&S.

I am not sure either. However, it would be easy to fix that by reducing Carve and Spit potency to 300 for example, if needed. Also, if DRK gains a small amount of net potency with these changes would not be a problem, since it is slightly behind in DPS and these changes would increase (slightly) the difficult to play it optimally.