Patch 5.05 DPS balance discussion Nin+Dnc

[Shiroe]

@ teleporting blm..

dunno how often I died cause the teleported player moved late or just out of range ..

teleporting works, but its not that reliable as "last resort"

[Darkstride]

@ teleporting blm..

dunno how often I died cause the teleported player moved late or just out of range ..

teleporting works, but its not that reliable as "last resort"

I do wish that Aetherial Manipulation worked more like Shukuchi, where you can free aim it or use it on a target.

[Marianno]

@Drayos, better hand over your raise spell, your devotion spell, and your phoenix regeneration perk. These utility spells may seem worthless to you but you still have them on SMN. BLM has NOTHING...NO UTILITY AT ALL. The little utility we did have was taken away in favour of damage. Haven’t we learned anything when SMN was put on par and ahead of BLM in SB? BLM was memed so heavily and was not wanted. Why bring a BLM when you can bring a SMN who can do the same damage as a BLM just about, have mobility, and probably overtake BLM in the process? I feel like people want SMN to simply not cast anything. It is a CASTER. It should have to CAST something. Every second BLM cannot attack the boss due to a mechanic, BLM loses damage, same as SAM. SMN has dots and you cannot turn off dots. They keep ticking. You’ll counter and say, well you have procs. What if I use my procs on a previous mechanic, there is a massive movement phase coming up and I have TC/SC on CD. Well I am SoL. SMN can safely do all mechanics due to those dots. BLM is still punished just as viciously as SMN because of movement. Everything we do uses the GCD. SMN has a combination of oGCD and GCD that are burst and some consistent. Putting SMN so close to BLM would create another SB dilemma and we would be back to where we started.

[Drayos]

@Drayos, better hand over your raise spell, your devotion spell, and your phoenix regeneration perk. These utility spells may seem worthless to you but you still have them on SMN. BLM has NOTHING...NO UTILITY AT ALL. The little utility we did have was taken away in favour of damage. Haven’t we learned anything when SMN was put on par and ahead of BLM in SB? BLM was memed so heavily and was not wanted. Why bring a BLM when you can bring a SMN who can do the same damage as a BLM just about, have mobility, and probably overtake BLM in the process? I feel like people want SMN to simply not cast anything. It is a CASTER. It should have to CAST something. Every second BLM cannot attack the boss due to a mechanic, BLM loses damage, same as SAM. SMN has dots and you cannot turn off dots. They keep ticking. You’ll counter and say, well you have procs. What if I use my procs on a previous mechanic, there is a massive movement phase coming up and I have TC/SC on CD. Well I am SoL. SMN can safely do all mechanics due to those dots. BLM is still punished just as viciously as SMN because of movement. Everything we do uses the GCD. SMN has a combination of oGCD and GCD that are burst and some consistent. Putting SMN so close to BLM would create another SB dilemma and we would be back to where we started.

Lol summoner loses more dps then BLM does. And it’s rdps is no way high enough to justify a 3k dps gap.

We aren’t talking being identical dps

We are talking about the gap between dps are currently too large.

SAM v Dragoon/monk is a lot closer in dps difference. And both these jobs have higher RDPS value. Ninja falls short but we all agree it also needs buffing.

MCH v Bard is about 600 dps. And Dancers 1.9k but it has like 1600 rdps and still Is closer to MCH then RDM is to BLM.

It has tons of OGCDs it doesn’t ignore the fact these have CDs or the fact their damage doesn’t primarily come from that.

There’s no reasons casters dps differences need to be larger then the other dps roles. There just isn’t realistically not by the quantities they are currently atleast

[Drayos]

@Drayos, better hand over your raise spell, your devotion spell, and your phoenix regeneration perk. These utility spells may seem worthless to you but you still have them on SMN. BLM has NOTHING...NO UTILITY AT ALL. The little utility we did have was taken away in favour of damage. Haven’t we learned anything when SMN was put on par and ahead of BLM in SB? BLM was memed so heavily and was not wanted. Why bring a BLM when you can bring a SMN who can do the same damage as a BLM just about, have mobility, and probably overtake BLM in the process? I feel like people want SMN to simply not cast anything. It is a CASTER. It should have to CAST something. Every second BLM cannot attack the boss due to a mechanic, BLM loses damage, same as SAM. SMN has dots and you cannot turn off dots. They keep ticking. You’ll counter and say, well you have procs. What if I use my procs on a previous mechanic, there is a massive movement phase coming up and I have TC/SC on CD. Well I am SoL. SMN can safely do all mechanics due to those dots. BLM is still punished just as viciously as SMN because of movement. Everything we do uses the GCD. SMN has a combination of oGCD and GCD that are burst and some consistent. Putting SMN so close to BLM would create another SB dilemma and we would be back to where we started.

On phone can’t correct

I ment summoners dps on the move isn’t as ldifferent not higher lol

U mention dots yet you ignore the fact they aren’t high potency they now buff ruin 3 which requires a cast.

BLM has teleports meaning it can readjust faster and start casting faster

U have 3 instant casts and a swift cast per 1 minute odd.

You have a teleport to ur ley lines.

These all buff your uptime.

[Marianno]

I concede your point about SMN dots, R3 does require a cast and is not instant. I still do not think buffing SMN is the way to go. I think people simply do not like the flow of the rotation. I have played SMN in a few Titania EX fights (~5) and practiced on the mannequin with SMN and I agree that the abilities do make you feel like your stepping on your own toes. It’s clunky as heck and the dot delay thing should have been addressed years ago. No idea why that was a thing anyhow. I strongly believe that the DPS despair between the casters are so high due to the way in which each caster job was designed. SMN has 3 utility abilities, RDM has 3 utility abilities, and BLM has 0. Regardless if the utility abilities are for flavour or not, they are there and present. BLM may be able to reposition, but BLM is still gated by the highest cast times in the game. Who else has a 2.8 sec base cast time on their main damage skill? Who else has a 3.0 sec base cast time on one of their destructive spells?

[Marianno]

I think that if we want to close the gap then the devs need to think about how to fix the SMN rotation with QOL changes and not necessarily buffs. SMN was a bit out of control with what the devs did in 4.1. I also think that if we look at how strong the synergy is with respect to melee and casters, we will find that casters are more or less forced to stand on their own or assist melee. For example, RDM works well with melee setups, seems (IMO) most ranges physical setups works well with melee setups. SMN works well with all jobs due to devotion but we have to admit, people often design team strays around melee uptime. This discussion lends credence to more deeper issues at the heart of the problem. Why does melee have such great synergy and casters do not? Why are casters forced to stand on their own and melee are not? Why are stats always designed around melee uptime and even knowing BLM has tons of damage, people still choose melee over it and design strategies around melee?! If SE fixed synergy between the casters, we may get changes we want to see. Since casters have no synergy and melee has synergy, this disparity will continue. Buffing SMN is not the way to fix this problem. Fixing its clunky rotation and shorten that run cast is a start but more needs to be done.

[DaulBan]

Why does melee have such great synergy and casters do not? Why are casters forced to stand on their own and melee are not? Why are stats always designed around melee uptime and even knowing BLM has tons of damage, people still choose melee over it and design strategies around melee?! If SE fixed synergy between the casters, we may get changes we want to see. Since casters have no synergy and melee has synergy, this disparity will continue. Buffing SMN is not the way to fix this problem.

Truth be told the only thing that approximates 'melee' synergy is dragoon tether. Physical buffs certainly exist but they also effect ranged phys, so it's not like it's a melee-only thing. Dragoon historically specifically buffed ranged phys as well. Slashing is the only real example I can think of, with HW slashing buffing four melee off of one job's rotation.

RE: BLM vs Melee, this hasn't really been tested yet. HW the meta was double ranged phys where movement was much less of an issue than BLM, and in StB SMN was meta and again suffered fairly little from movement due to a low potency difference beetween Ruin 3 and 2. Currently, it looks like BLM is going to be meta, and it is likely that groups will try to make sure BLM have reasonable uptime. Speaking from personal experience (which is only up to E3S) there's only one case where I could see the plebs doing something stupid for a strat with BLM and that's having it kite puddles in the E1S transition instead of having the melee do a dance. And for the BLM mains shooting for the proverbial stars I'm sure they'll find better and better methods of handling mechanics that might otherwise interrupt them. That goes the same for other casters that choose to keep on with what they're playing.

In the end, the disparity between casters (non-BLM) and melee (non-NIN) is strictly that they just do more damage and have actual utility for the group period. RDM has something, which helps, but its personal dps is so bad it doesn't make a difference. There's no reason to use it in your wildcard slot after prog.

[Kabooa]

Lol summoner loses more dps then BLM does. And it’s rdps is no way high enough to justify a 3k dps gap.

You can close the gap when you lose or share dat raise.

[Marianno]

@DaulBan I acknowledge that. You make a fair point about the differences but the fact still stands. RDM has three utility spells (Raise, Cure, Embolden). SMN has three utility spells (Devotion, Raise, and FBT-Regen). We can all agree that these utility spells are overrated and in some cases FBT-Regen on the Phoenix is weak, Devotion is too long a CD, Raise on RDM is bad because it effectively makes them only good for prog to let you see more phases or mechanics in savage/extreme fights, embolden too weak and has fall off potency, vercure on RDM is not saving anyone aside from small mistakes that can be remedied and in dungeons if the healer gets thrashed. The RDM can raise and participate in trying to keep the tank up if they are not a GNB/PLD or whatever. These spells (Devotion/Embolden) should either be made more potent or the CD for the Devotion/embolden should be reduced. Hell, make Embolden affect all damage types.