WHM going to become black sheep of healers again

[CodeAscalon]

I just ask for buffs for whm in same time when SE bufs scholar and astro from the begin, I don't want to feel unwatned in party, I don't want to feel weak,
you know what ? I felt totally weak and useless in SB as WHM when I 1st tried SCH in there times ... EVERYTHING felt so much BETTER when i played SCH than WHM theres days
comunity asking for some kind of utility for whm for years without effect ...

Sorry but are you an idiot? Asking for buffs, for a job that is ALREADY very good balanced, ONLY because YOU won't feel left behind?
gurl go home

[HyperiusUltima]

oh yeah, history just show in 2 last expanions how SE balance healers and WHM ...

Ok Doomsayer, go back to Eden where you came from.

For as long as I remember WHM wasn’t relevant ONLY late HW and almost all of Stormblood(Lilies were horribad). Now, WHM is back in it with high representation.

The reason for this is like all the other reasons in this thread: IT HAS pDPS to back itself up for lack of utility damage increases like AST Cards. What’s more, AST needs the adjustments to be playable. Look at 5.0 for examples.

[HyoMinPark]

im perfectionist im always pick best option and I also want the best option be my faviorite
always min/maxing my character in any rpg game
also what wrong if some1 want his main be good ?

Judging from your Lodestone, you don't appear to do any content that resembles the need for min-maxing (e.g., Ultimate, Savage, Extremes (lol)). You have no ponies, no birds, no dogs, no dragons. No Savage mounts. You don't appear to have any Ultimate weapons or titles. So, if you don't raid, why are you so concerned about the meta? Meta only matters for the bleeding-edge type players, and your Lodestone doesn't show that that description really fits you.

For the content you appear to do, WHM is more than enough. It's the best healer by far in dungeons thanks to Holy, quick/powerful heals, and near-bottomless mana pool. So I don't know why you're worried.
It's also still highly valuable in Savage - still highest in terms of rDPS, and far more comfy than AST even after the healing potency buffs. Especially during progression; and it was favored as the prog healer for both Ultimates as well, even after the AST changes in 4.3 and 4.4. Most uploads were still WHM/SCH.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Join Date
Jun 2019

you have no idea how much WHM suffered in HW are you ?
you have no idea how WHM was bad in HW are you ?

my whole point for this thread that I don't want to keep history repeat itself like it was in HW and 3/4 SB
I don't want to my fav healer class to be black sheep of healers again

and yes I played all 3 healers before ...

Started this character in 3.0, when AST was the garbo healer job, and got to see the entire downslide for WHM from there. Any more fallacious accusations? If you check that OTHER website, you'll see logs for me doing Delta Savage in StB as WHM too, so I've raided too. Even went back and did all of Coil sync'd in HW, before we started losing abilities, so I also know what it felt like to raid in ARR, if a bit overgeared.

I don't want WHM to suffer either, but all your posts following 5.00 on AST and SCH were downright mean. You showed ZERO interest in improving WHM, asides from even more pDPS, and every interest in gloating over SCH and AST having to suffer too.

0 respect from me for that behavior. 0 respect for assuming I must be new, because I disagreed with you, without doing an easy check that'd confirm when I started play (on Gaethan anyways).

[Yuyuka3]

In fairness, in meta teams WHM wasnt allowed only SCH/AST, but, in my experience, the only times I saw meta enforced was in parse runs and whenever hardcore statics were recruiting. Most teams honestly didnt care if they had a WHM/SCH, SCH/AST, or even WHM/AST. IMO everyone is freaking out, treating meta like it's this evil monster that prevents them from playing their favorite class, when i hardly ever saw it enforced except in hardcore scenarios.

Though, who knows, maybe it happened more than I saw.

I play midcore, and I had more than one person try forcing me to play AST. Rarely to SCH, because every single party I ever healed in had me paired with a SCH, so I find that apparently even split between all healers in StB extremely hard to believe. SCH was everywhere.
So no hardcore at all, or even semi, yet the same "AST is far better, switch plz"-mindset. Good for you if you never had that (not as if it affected you anyway as SCH), but stop acting as if it wasn't a problem.

Just out of shear curiousity and the fact that I have not played a WHM since HW. What exactly in detail are the issues WHM have currently?

To quote myself:

[...]Right now, I wish for some weaving options. They look plenty on paper, but I find myself wanting for something to weave in surprisingly often even if I use Benison on CD, especially when taking double-weaving into account like in the opener, and that you sometimes don't actually have to use, say, Tetra because nobody took damage. And between Regen, 3 - 4 Afflatus-spells in 90 seconds (if you actually need them), Dia and the option to Swiftcast something e.g. for movement, there are so many potential weave windows that I at times stand there without anything to klick while waiting for the GCD to wear off. Also, only a single of my weaving options, Assize, deals damage, so it would be nice to have something in that regard especially, since weaving a healing-CD into a heal is often not necessary at all, and my only damage-GCD I can use for weaving is Misery and Dia, and if I use Dia, I might have to clip it just to weave; that doesn't feel good to me at all. I would honestly like to see Misery off the GCD, even if they should nerf it a bit if they do so. I think that would help already. Also, a negative about Lilies I see is that while SCH can get three aether stacks immediately at the beginning of the fight, the first Lily will only appear after 30 seconds. That might sound like a small thing, but a single Lily at the start would feel pretty nice in quite a few situations, though this isn't such a big issue. It's also a bother that all Lilies, including the blood lily you spent so much time getting, vanish if you die, but I guess that's something I just have to deal with, as SCH had to since forever. *shrugs*
Also, I know many will disagree on this one, but some rDPS-utility would be nice. They have to nerf our rDPS if they do so to not make us completely op, but with how fixated many players are on this even today, it would literally be the easiest way to stop the cycle of WHM falling out of grace we lived through twice now, and which I predict happening again. Another option would be getting a debuff instead.[...]

Also this guy, in reply to the same person I replied to:

[...]This is a tricky question. The problem with WHM, as we see it, is that it lacks something the other Jobs have. So it's not really about tweaking existing stuff. The fundamental design is flawed, and indeed, is the source of most imbalance between the healers. SCH's healing kit is primarily off GCD, allowing it to use most of its GCDs on doing damage. AST's raid DPS comes largely from its off-global card system, allowing it to use many GCDs on healing without completely tanking its rDPS contribution. WHM, meanwhile, has most of its healing and damage toolkits on the GCD, with limited abilities to weave. This chart makes it pretty stark:



For SCH, the loss of Embrace targeting and Energy Drain, and the inability to activate fairy abilities during spell casts, has been a huge dumbing down of the Job - and yet they still have more to weave than WHMs do, even without using Emergency Tactics at all.

In order to achieve a semblance of balance (and for single-healer content) the healers each have to have the same core functionalities. In White Mage's case, more of this functionality is packed into its GCD spells: its damage spells are more potent, and its healing spells more varied and versatile.

But we all have the same number of GCDs, which means WHM's performance and playstyle is dictated by encounter design far more than the other two healers. That's why WHM looks like a DPS powerhouse now, but in a challenging Savage or Ultimate raid will likely fall behind SCH. That's also what we mean when we say SCH has become WHM. In content without a lot of healing, we're both just spamming one button. This is how WHM has always been, and it feels awful when you're not healing a lot. Their solution to this seems to have been just a huge nerf to healing, requiring more usage of healing spells. The problem there, of course, is that this still tanks WHM's rDPS, and SCH has as few healing spells as it does damage spells.

The obvious thing to do with Shadowbringers would've been to make WHM a bit more like the other two. It had a useless Job gauge. They could've done anything. Instead they took a different approach, giving WHM a mechanic that offsets its personal DPS loss when it has to use GCDs to heal. At this point, I'm resigned to the fact that they just won't give WHM more oGCD abilities because they think WHM players are one-armed toddlers who can't press more than one button every 2.5s.

So, looking at realistic changes, perhaps they could develop this a bit further. Ditch the passively-generated Lilies altogether. Require the generation of 5-6 Lilies to make the Blood Lily bloom. Cast-time heal spells (Cures and Medicas) generate 2 Lilies, and instants (Afflatus) generate 1. Then, give us a second option for expending the Blood Lily: a short-duration (~10s) buff (Afflatus: Wrath?) to our damage which has a greater potency potential than Afflatus: Misery. Tweak potencies as necessary, and slap an MP cost on Solace and Rapture.

This achieves several goals:

1. WHM still gets the desired mobility from the Afflatus heals, but it doesn't incentivize always using those spells first, and indeed punishes you for over-relying on them. It also pares back on WHM's total disregard for MP.
2. It further stabilizes WHM's rDPS contribution by offsetting the DPS loss of using GCDs on healing. This also allows WHM's maximum pDPS potential to be toned down a bit (tanks rejoice).
3. It restores an element of planning and decision-making around how to use the Blood Lily gauge, without totally punishing you for making the "less optimal" decision.

Alas, what're the chances? I hope you weren't expecting a short reply!

So long story short, ability to weave is a huge, glaring issue (as it always was) since all the options are either on a longer CD, or heals (you would weave into another heal, which is rarely needed), as well as the fact that we cannot get rid of lilies without overhealing in many situations. Then the way Lilie's are generated and how punishing it is to die just as you finally built up your Blood Lily after what feels like ages. Also, Misery is only a partial DPS refund.

[NanaWiloh]

Well Nana I'm glad you asked. You see every single time that Square does changes for SCH or AST they have a history of doing so much so quickly that WHM gets overlooked every single time. Which in turn winds up leaving the job as the bench warmer in most groups that are aiming for speed runs (Almost everyone from mid expansion on Last Expansion WHM was benched first Quarter because they really made AST too stupidly powerful) This also happened from about HW endgame where they overcompensated AST because (they sucked even harder than they did SHB Launch) WHM gets benched every single time because who needs uber powerful healing when you already know all the mechs by heart and can avoid most of the damage.And that's about all WHM is able to bring to the table because they never get touched beyond the first expansion patch Thier DPS "Kit" is more or less the same every expansion for damage.And yet SCH and AST get overbuffed to make up for the "dressing down" they get at Expansion Launch SCH even got back a DPS button/mp gatherer/aetherflow burner AST got ALOT of stuff but keep asking for more which they will likely get to the point that they're back at Stormblood levels while once more WHM will not get any changes utility or the like and be sat on the bench and the majority (And by Majority I do mean Majority not all) of ASTs and SCHs will go back to not giving a crap cause their preferred class is back on top.

Plus how often do you see people act rationally when theres something that might possibly affect their mains?
The only reason I do (WHM has been my Main Forever going back to WHM being my Main again) Is because I'm capable of distancing myself and trying to think through the issue logically and try to come up with solutions and ideas that might prevent the issues such as Synergy abilities and the like.

I was looking for more of what do Whm players feel the class needs. What needs to changed, what needs to buff or nefered on Whm those kinds of things. I wont comment on scholar as I have not played it enough to make any call on it. The only buffs and changes Ast has been calling for is too healing which we got. The card system is a mess so I dont blame anyone for wanting that fixed, our dps is still the lowest and coud use a buff. Now when buffing our DPS the fact that we can buff with cards really does need to be taken into account to ensure we dont blast by the other healers.

The lily dump for Whm is a good start I agree on that one they need a dump. I know in the past Whm has asked for high dps or utility, you have high dps I am aware your dps kit is boring very much like all the healers. So see no issue with asking SE to make it more interesting. But lets not get greedy and ask to have high dps and have utility as well got to choose one or the other.

[Billythepancake]

I play midcore, and I had more than one person try forcing me to play AST. Rarely to SCH, because every single party I ever healed in had me paired with a SCH, so I find that apparently even split between all healers in StB extremely hard to believe. SCH was everywhere.
So no hardcore at all, or even semi, yet the same "AST is far better, switch plz"-mindset. Good for you if you never had that (not as if it affected you anyway as SCH), but stop acting as if it wasn't a problem.



To quote myself:


Also this guy, in reply to the same person I replied to:


So long story short, ability to weave is a huge, glaring issue (as it always was) since all the options are either on a longer CD, or heals (you would weave into another heal, which is rarely needed), as well as the fact that we cannot get rid of lilies without overhealing in many situations. Then the way Lilie's are generated and how punishing it is to die just as you finally built up your Blood Lily after what feels like ages. Also, Misery is only a partial DPS refund.

I mained WHM for a while, I wasnt good at it granted, but even when I was a WHM main I was never forced to swap, I was asked maybe once if I could play AST instead, and after I politely told them no i couldn't, they left it at that. And while I havent raided for nearly as long as others, only alphascape really, for half of that tier I was a WHM. It wasnt until o11s I decided to swap over to scholar after falling in love with its kit.

I'm aware WHM does need something to call it's own, and I think having this huge pDPS is a step in the right direction, and as I hope for energy drain on scholar, I hope its not the only step. I'm also aware WHM has issues that need to be addressed. IE, they need some sort of lillie dump that isnt a heal, and more oGCD heals in general. TBH, scholar has way too many oGCD heals so I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of them go so WHM could have a few.

[Evocal]

5.05 patch:

- SCH got energy drain back that will give same damage like WHM and make him OP again
- ASTRO lot of buffs
- WHM got nothing again

2 more patches like this and WHM will be again unwanted shit for raids like it was in SB that no1 want this class GJ SE !

mark my words, soon history will repeat itself like it was in SB

drop your WHM before it too late and go level SCH or ASTRO if you want keep your raid slot

what WHM got now ?
- dmg ? nope
- utility nope
- barrier ? LOL ...
- healing ? lol
- oh yeah we have useless holy for raids ...

YES IM ANGRY I HAVE TO DROP AGAIN MY FAV HEALER CAUSE OF SCHOLARS WHINING and play SCH cause I hate astro over life !!

GJ SE from angry WHM player ...


and ppls think that WHM is already OP ...

What we have?
Damage? A lot, the best of the 3 healers.
Utility? Temperances damage reduction is still utility though it is true that between the 3 healers we are the ones with the least amout of utility.
Barrier? Same as utility, we may be the one with the least barriers but Benison is pretty good, you should not undervalue it.
Healing? You could argue that when SCH had no energy drain they were better in terms of healings since they could dump their Aetherflow so they were force to use a lot of their healing oGCD. But now WHM without doubt is the best in terms on healing and also we have the better mana management habilities so we dont have to be mindfull at all of using Medicas or cures.

Like it or not right now WHM is in a really good spot(I would not call it OP). I still expect AST to receive more buffs in terms on damage, and Im not sure about SCH since I dont play that class a lot but I think they are in a good spot too.

It is true that WHM was behind in all SB and in HW on Midas and Creator but since AST and SCH are harder than WHM they should do more rDPS than WHM (Around 100-200 DPS to keep WHM viable).

[Anselmet]

Has op ever played sch? Oh yes, bc in a raid situation we're totally gonna drop all of our aether stacks into energy drains. Bc screwing the pooch and eliminating our ogcd heals is what you wanna do in a raid situation. Also, when did whm NOT have better pdps then sch? If in a sterile bubble whm would do more than sch in sb and hw at the top of my head. (granted schs could before shb do more dps than whm in raids bc fairy) Now sch can't even touch whm in dps even with energy drain. Unless they really wanna be unrealistic and claim that we're firing away three energy drains and then eating our fairy to fire three more, which I'm sorry? Why would I do that unless I was in a milk toast dungeon?!! Energy drain's sole purpose is to drop a stack that isn't needed so we can hit aether flow to get mp back once it comes of cool down. It's not a nefarious skill to screw over whm. How hard of a concept is this? Dear god.

EDIT: Before any of you ppl start. I'm not saying sch was behind whm in hw/sb, I'm saying that they had the potential to do more dps IF on a striking dummy. Op claimed at one point that sch did more dps then whms when it was schs op kit that allowed them to do more dps in raids. What I am saying is square isn't gonna magically decide that sch's pdps is gonna be higher than whm.

[Magnedeus]

Do you know what black sheep even means?