tank gear

[Tyrial]

It is if you focus only on damage.
Mitigation and damage combined are bigger number than what direct hit could give you, and bonus self healing on top of that.

Ok...and your point? Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Tenacity can offer. The faster the boss dies the less damage it does to you.



Those are some awesome mitigation numbers, right?

[MaraD_]

It is if you focus only on damage.
Mitigation and damage combined are bigger number than what direct hit could give you, and bonus self healing on top of that.

The only win condition to a battle is to get the enemies HP to 0.
Because of this, mitigation cant ever come at the cost of DPS.
The only mitigation that matters, is the one which actually enhances DPS.

If your tanks die, they do 0 dps.

This is why Holmgang works as a mitigation tool.
It doesnt hurt DPS, the tank lives, and healers arent wasting resources they spend on DPS.

But if the tank was going to survive the TB, even w/o holmgang, then it mitigates 0 dmg, and might require healers to waste resources they wouldnt have had, if the tank used rampart instead.

This is why TEN is essentially a bad stat.
It doesnt help the tank survive enough to add DPS from the healers, if anything, it costs DPS.

You only ever need to mitigate enough to survive, and not cost healer GCDs/DPS resources. (Now that SCH has energy drain, it technically can be a hindrance to use lustrates on tanks, where as before 5.05, it wasnt)

[Hezzlocks]

It is so funny that the stat the devs made for tanks are the one stat most tanks avoid like the plague.
Either they should remove it or make it more useful. "But if you make it more useful tanks will use it instead of other stats" well wasn't that the point of this stat, that tanks should use it?

Pretty much exactly this. There's *always* going to be a best stat, one that you'll want to stack above all others. You might as well make it that stat that was made for tanks and can only be *used* by tanks.

[TheForce]

Ok...and your point? Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Tenacity can offer. The faster the boss dies the less damage it does to you.



Those are some awesome mitigation numbers, right?

"Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Teancity can offer".

That's not how that works. Been here since beta, therefore I have seen many, many different types of players. I've constantly watched how they interact with other players, and the general attitudes they all have, and I gotta say, this "DPS is absolutely everything and nothing else matters" mindset is straight poisonous to this game. And what's worse is that the individuals I've seen in game that hold this belief tend to be so annoyingly sensitive about it...the moment that you question them about it they start to get insult, degrade, and attack you as if you were a piece of trash. Yoshi P would be ashamed of it honestly.

What you said here is not good logic and I hope that any players who are confused about this topic do not heed this advice. Killing a boss a couple seconds faster isn't going to make Tankbusters, regular aoes, or stack aoes hit any softer, and those are the actually group-killers, all of which Tenacity helps against. A boss being alive for a few more seconds to squeeze in maybe one or two auto attacks isn't going to hurt a group more than the Tank just all around taking more damage due to not having the extra mit, no matter how relatively miniscule the difference in damage may seem.

[Tyrial]

all of which Tenacity helps against.

I'm sorry, are we looking at the same numbers? I've also been around since beta, not sure what that has to do with anything. Go back to any raid or Ex trial...the faster you kill it the less mechanics it's able to do. They're on a set rotation. Yes some mechanics are triggered by HP, others go off at set times and you can completely skip some by doing more damage. We're talking the whole group working together for optimal performance and part of that is proper melds so that you can eke out every bit of advantage possible. That doesn't shave off just a couple seconds, that can shave off a couple minutes. So where is the harm in trying to be optimal?

Rough math from a post on Reddit shows Tenacity to be 0.1% increase to DPS/Healing/Damage taken for every 33 points. Basic 450 gear aiming for Tenacity and melding as much as possible without wasting melds puts you around 2357 with food. That puts you at roughly a 7% reduction in damage taken (admittedly my math could be wrong!)...doesn't seem that beneficial to me. It's also worth noting that Tenacity only increases the amount of healing you do, not the amount of incoming healing received.

You're acting as though we're getting this constant stream of attacks that are hitting rapid fire and are going to decimate us in a matter of seconds if we don't stack extra mitigation. The reality is that the actual attacks that are going to kill us are scripted and we can plan for them and hit a defensive CD that will mitigate far more than anything Tenacity can. At the same time the healer should be planning their CD usage. This argument is as old as time, but what it boils down to is the only mitigation you need is whatever is going to allow you to survive the tank buster. It doesn't matter if you're surviving with 1 HP (Holmgang) or 20k HP. As soon as the buster hits there should be a heal coming your way. Depending on the amount of incoming damage that may be a benediction/tetra or a basic cure.

Just because you seem to enjoy melding tenacity everywhere you can doesn't make it an optimal stat to have. Sure, it's better than parry as it does increase DPS slightly but it's far from optimal. But that doesn't make my advice incorrect.

[BarretOblivion]

"Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Teancity can offer".

That's not how that works. Been here since beta, therefore I have seen many, many different types of players. I've constantly watched how they interact with other players, and the general attitudes they all have, and I gotta say, this "DPS is absolutely everything and nothing else matters" mindset is straight poisonous to this game. And what's worse is that the individuals I've seen in game that hold this belief tend to be so annoyingly sensitive about it...the moment that you question them about it they start to get insult, degrade, and attack you as if you were a piece of trash. Yoshi P would be ashamed of it honestly.

What you said here is not good logic and I hope that any players who are confused about this topic do not heed this advice. Killing a boss a couple seconds faster isn't going to make Tankbusters, regular aoes, or stack aoes hit any softer, and those are the actually group-killers, all of which Tenacity helps against. A boss being alive for a few more seconds to squeeze in maybe one or two auto attacks isn't going to hurt a group more than the Tank just all around taking more damage due to not having the extra mit, no matter how relatively miniscule the difference in damage may seem.

A couple of seconds do matter because it gives your group cushioning for things such as mistakes. Tenacity has very miniscule help in things that are actually dangerous if you are in a group are all doing their job. Stack markers? Yeah Healers AoE all that, you tanking less damage to that to them is a giant "whatever" as its better to have Determination that both scales better with damage and amount healers heal you for. TB? If you know how to plan your cooldown Determination is again better for helping healers top you off. Raid wide AoEs should never be killing anybody if use all of the tools at your groups disposal. Are you mitigating/shielding properly? As a tank you should never be dying to a raid wide AoE... healers don't concentrate on you during that, they are focused on the squishies that have less HP. Again, its better to have DET so you get healed more by thier AoEs. Det Trumps Tenacity in every category because it scales better than it and increases your damage more than a small defensive bonus you don't notice. If you are progging in ultimate? Maybe consider running tenacity but if you get to the point you are strugging on damage because that content is pushing all players to be doing your absolute best? You are going to meld offensive stats. There is no content in the game at this moment that requires tanks to have that small passive damage mitigation and unitl that happens ore tenacity is buffed to be scaled well, tanks shouldn't be melding it.

[Kabooa]

Ok...and your point? Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Tenacity can offer. The faster the boss dies the less damage it does to you.

The difference between any of the Substats on the tanks isn't going to make such a huge difference on boss kill times. And that was when you had parry instead of Tenacity.

[Taika]

Mitigation wise, higher item level is always better than any number of tenacity because of the increased defense and vitality. In pre-Savage/Phantasmagoria gear at least, the differences between tenacity and other stats aren't significant in either mitigation or DPS (not sure about WAR because they want crit and that works a bit differently). The good thing about direct hit melds is that you'll gain the full benefit from each meld because the gear itself doesn't have any.

The difference between 1500 and 2500 tenacity mitigation is 0,031% and the damage multiplier goes from 1.033 to 1.064.

For 500 direct hit, the chance is 2% and the expected damage is 1.005, when for 1500 direct hit, the chance is 18.6% and expected damage 1.0465.

If you want to maximise your output, follow this advice:

Crit > Comfy SkS > Det > Ten (WAR)
Direct Hit > Determination > Critical Hit > Tenacity (PLD)
Comfy SkS > DH > Det > Crit > Ten (GNB/DRK)

It will not reduce your mitigation in any significant number. Then again, if you want to meld tenacity where it can be melded, that won't significantly reduce your DPS either. Just make sure you have the right amount of skillspeed if you're a GNB or DRK.

[Nedkel]

Ok...and your point? Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Tenacity can offer. The faster the boss dies the less damage it does to you.



Those are some awesome mitigation numbers, right?

Yes more damage means less damage taken because the run is shorter, but have you took into the account that tank is not main damage dealer, and he makes only a fraction of a total group dps?

If we take more realistic approach and put a tenacity all melds and direct hit all melds tanks next to each other, then :
Tenacity tank has 1560 more tenacity,
This amount of tenacity on a tank that already has 2500 tenacity translates into 4.7% additional mitigation and 4.7% additional damage and a self healing bonus probably 4.7% as well.
D hit has 1560 direct hit stat translates into 6.5% additional damage

I took data from this site.
http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/dh/

What does these numbers really means is that, tank with needs 4.7% healing less which combined with better healing bonus probably sits at around 5%, but makes 1.8% less damage than a tank with direct hit melds. This 5% in mitigation could be easily used by a healers and let them a little more damage than usually they do, evening out on the total group DPS between a group with a tenacity and d hit tank.

Thats why i am going full tenacity, it gives more than we all expect.

[Taika]

If we take more realistic approach and put a tenacity all melds and direct hit all melds tanks next to each other, then :
Tenacity tank has 1560 more tenacity,
This amount of tenacity on a tank that already has 2500 tenacity translates into 4.7% additional mitigation and 4.7% additional damage and a self healing bonus probably 4.7% as well.
D hit has 1560 direct hit stat translates into 6.5% additional damage

Can you link the two gear sets you compared so we can check these numbers? And what 'self healing bonus' are you referring to?