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  1. #1
    Player
    Risvertasashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,706
    Character
    Makani Risvertasashi
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 50

    Healers can't outdamage competent tanks

    Had a feeling this was true - or more than a feeling, since we could inspect the logs of their absurd padding - but now we have the numbers to back it up.



    Essentially, without extreme padding, no healer... not even white mage... will be outdamaging a competent tank.
    (3)

  2. #2
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    4,391
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Risvertasashi View Post
    Had a feeling this was true - or more than a feeling, since we could inspect the logs of their absurd padding - but now we have the numbers to back it up.



    Essentially, without extreme padding, no healer... not even white mage... will be outdamaging a competent tank.
    Should they?
    (5)

  3. #3
    Player
    Risvertasashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,706
    Character
    Makani Risvertasashi
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabooa View Post
    Should they?
    I don't have a horse in that race, I just thought it was worth a mention with all the "OMG WHM doing more damage than tanks!" that was going around.
    (8)

  4. #4
    Player Yuyuka3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    486
    Character
    Kyara Moonbane
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    In other news, the sky is blue.

    Seriously, guys. It was obvious from the beginning that once the real stuff hits, healing requirements go up and the padding goes to the targets that actually matter (read, DPS), healers just won't be able to outdamage tanks anymore. Anyone who believed otherwise deluded themselves.
    (3)

  5. #5
    Player
    LariaKirin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    325
    Character
    Laria Kirin
    World
    Spriggan
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Bit premature, don't you think?

    Healer optimization depends on the entire party, tank optimization is predominantly individual. Top WHM is 200 DPS behind bottom tank. Which do you think gets a bigger increase once the entire party is BIS?

    It's closer than it's ever been or could ever be in Stormblood. Besides, you don't need WHM to outdamage tanks to realise that healer damage has reached ridiculous levels. The difference between WHM and tanks nowdays is comparable to the difference between two tanks in Stormblood.

    We'll see how well this ages in a few weeks.
    (6)

  6. #6
    Player
    Lagomorph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    116
    Character
    Cruise Chaser
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 32
    Quote Originally Posted by Risvertasashi View Post
    Essentially, without extreme padding, no healer... not even white mage... will be outdamaging a competent tank.
    Whether you were intentionally trying to mislead people or not, this is just untrue. A white mage doesn't need padding to out damage a tank. All they need for the healing requirement to be low enough so that they do not have to gcd heal - something that isn't exactly a rare occurrence in shadowbringers. See here.

    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...spec=WhiteMage
    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...ps&class=Tanks

    If you think this is because of padding, it isn't. Note that the list is sorted by raid dps and not personal dps. A white mage purely doing their dps rotation properly without having to gcd heal will do more damage than even the best of tanks. I don't see how this can be disputed at all.
    (6)

  7. #7
    Player
    Exiled_Tonberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    1,660
    Character
    Sharl Llyntine
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    This was already obvious, Titania and Innocence had like 0 healing requirements.
    Not gonna lie, I kinda wish it was possible for a WHM to do tank level dmg, but this is fine. Healers are a lot closer in raid contribution.

    Now we wait till SE keeps buffing AST and SCH only until everything is ruined.
    (2)

  8. #8
    Player Yuyuka3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    486
    Character
    Kyara Moonbane
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lagomorph View Post
    Whether you were intentionally trying to mislead people or not, this is just untrue. A white mage doesn't need padding to out damage a tank. All they need for the healing requirement to be low enough so that they do not have to gcd heal - something that isn't exactly a rare occurrence in shadowbringers. See here.

    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...spec=WhiteMage
    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...ps&class=Tanks

    If you think this is because of padding, it isn't. Note that the list is sorted by raid dps and not personal dps. A white mage purely doing their dps rotation properly without having to gcd heal will do more damage than even the best of tanks. I don't see how this can be disputed at all.
    I think TC worded it badly, and referred to savage there, excluding the super-easy Primals. So in other words, actual battles that don't see healers DPS fulltime, but juggle DPS and healing. That's also what I am talking about when I say that WHMs (and all healers, to an extent, though not as much) DPS contribution crumbles when healing is required. AST and SCH are much closer to WHM in that chart also because of rDPS contribution if my assumption that this is overall contribution and not only personal DPS is right; if I'm wrong, we are already in trouble now.
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player
    MaraD_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    290
    Character
    Hede Devaul
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Fisher Lv 80
    Those "Padded" numbers also happened on tanks too. (all jobs get padded)
    As others said, the real reason is because the content got harder, not due to padding.
    (2)

  10. #10
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Lavender Beds, Ward 13, Plot 41
    Posts
    7,339
    Character
    Hyomin Park
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 92
    Quote Originally Posted by MaraD_ View Post
    Those "Padded" numbers also happened on tanks too. (all jobs get padded)
    As others said, the real reason is because the content got harder, not due to padding.
    In addition, if the reference was also made towards Savage—it’s Week 1. These tanks and healers are currently progging the fights and focusing on doing whatever needs to be done to clear them, not optimizing them. I don’t know how it will stand either way when the time comes that raiders start actively optimizing, but we should probably wait a bit longer than 3 days after the tier dropped to make claims regarding personal damage output. These are all preliminary at this point, with no BiS and wearing entry-level gear.

    EDIT: This is also a graph without much context—such as percentiles. It could be 95th, or it could be 10th. This doesn’t really negate my earlier point of this being Week 1 of a Savage tier, but one shouldn’t present numbers with this little context to try and prove a point.
    (5)
    Last edited by HyoMinPark; 08-02-2019 at 11:11 PM.

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