Have Tanks been dumbed down to much?

[msoltyspl]

This is the same for Warrior and Gunbreaker. You have you have a 123 combo you are using 75% of the time. With you getting to use other ability here and there but waiting for ether cool down or to build up a meter to use the other abilities.

It does feel dumbed down, though TBH not like we used threat combo much in the past either way, not mentioning swapping back to tank stance. At least openers were more interesting.

What they should have done is making it impossible to hold aggro no matter what without regular stance dancing. What they did is they literally "threw the baby out with the bathwater" - gutting whole threat management out of the game turning stance into braindead x10 threat multiplier. And at the same time they were too lazy to replace the dps "rotation" with something more interesting than having only 1 basic combo.

OTOH at least we are not dumbed down to SCH level, that now presses only 1 key.

[shao32]

flexible is the new excuse to defend current DRK? well i guess is flexible yes when all the skills don't have any sinergy and you unique job is keeping on recast with you resource gain rate is so low letting have a huge window to operate without much effort. i could say then ARR PLD was the most flexible tank ever made right?

but let's not focus only on one aspect of the job, the resource management can't be consider proper management at the rate we gain resources right now if we compared to how DRK use to be. yes in SB can be consider to high but that was the deal, the job performance depend of how the player was able to generate and expend resources as fast a posible something is no longer the case saddly for good or bad. we can argue that the oGCD is still a part of DRK management yes and the only thing that remain more worse that better to his older versions since most of then has been nerfed, edge is a nice adition but a terrible one at the same time bcs TBN punishment is horrible now so we can say DRK go for worse in that department too.

the only mechanics that DRK have now is a pretty low resource management and blood weapon/delirium, thats literally makes 66% ofDRK mechanics being based or copy of WAR ones, the rest are just oGCD without any kind of purporse more that keep on recast and don't have to pay atention on any other personal stuff of the job, in fact DRK is so sad it need desperately a NIN to provide TA and have some kind of resource strategic bcs without that you just always trow you stuff when is viable and nothing more with is what literally happens on all the partys there is no TA.

SB DRK can be many things depending of the person but at least it was loyal to his original mechanics and improve certain aspects of the job instead of rip everything and create or copy a mindless sustitutes.

[EpicOverlord85]

So the complexity comes from squeezing out as much damage as possible? I mean yeah that’s fine and dandy for a little while, but it’s not exactly rocket science and I feel like any half decent tank will be able to get a good grip on something like this quite quickly (but maybe I’m putting too much in your general tank)considering how simple the tool kit is now. And by buff period are talking DRKs personal buff personal (Delirium) or more in a raid setting (such as when a ninja is present as you mentioned)?

Honestly? I liked the “mash as fast as possible” approach that DRK took last expansion (though I still prefer the HW iteration more). It was fast, slick, and it felt good to hit that haste period during a boss fight to really crank out the damage. Overall it just felt different to what the other two tanks were doing at the. I would also disagree that it was easier to manage your MP, sure it came in faster but we also had a lot more skills to dump that MP into which could then be further buffed by using Dark Arts which also used a good chunk of MP. To offset this we had skills like Blood Price and Blood Weapon that could be used in tandem with it all to help us sustain all of it. It was a dance I rather enjoyed (one that SB helped start tearing apart).

What other aspects am I ignoring exactly? The main hook of DRK now is using delirium for a burst window with blood spilled, just like Warrior does with its skill and fell cleave. We build a gage to dump said gage into a DPS move just like Warrior. What happened to Dark Dance and OG reprisal? What happened to the dance we did with Blood Price during big pulls or Blood Weapon during boss fights? TBN is just about the only original skill (though it’s an amazing skill tbh) I feel we have at this point besides Living Dead. And honestly I don’t consider Edge and Flood new either, they’re just replacing and function similar to the old Dark Passenger/Dark Arts combo that was prevalent in HW. I will concede though that I do like how TBN can proc a free Edge or Flood. And to say we’re more complex than Warrior isn’t exactly hard anymore as from what I’ve heard it was dumbed down greatly compared to before.

As a foot note I’d like to add that I personally miss haste and miss more than one combo.

[Aluja89]

Not mad just informing you because you can't come into a thread stating that tanking is boring when you had no prior experience with it and being a good tank does indeed tie into this thread, streamlining the tanks with the tools that you have while being a good tank kinda goes into how people like yourself view tanking do they not?

I find it fun because of what I can do and how I can be better while doing all the things I find tanking enjoyable, that's just your opinion on tanks and I just disagree this is what a forum is for unless i'm mistaken either way you do do, tanking is fun and I enjoy it and I'll just leave it at that it's how I feel as a tank main.

Informing me about what? All you did was assume which I did not engage with and then you do it again. Besides your list of good tank traits is just basic ass tank etiquette if that's your bar then you're already subpar.

What you find fun, I find boring simply because now I can't be better than other WARs I will always be as mediocre as the rest, there is no ceiling to reach because we're stuck to the ground.

[Inuk9]

So the complexity comes from squeezing out as much damage as possible? I mean yeah that’s fine and dandy for a little while, but it’s not exactly rocket science and I feel like any half decent tank will be able to get a good grip on something like this quite quickly (but maybe I’m putting too much in your general tank)considering how simple the tool kit is now. And by buff period are talking DRKs personal buff personal (Delirium) or more in a raid setting (such as when a ninja is present as you mentioned)?

Honestly? I liked the “mash as fast as possible” approach that DRK took last expansion (though I still prefer the HW iteration more). It was fast, slick, and it felt good to hit that haste period during a boss fight to really crank out the damage. Overall it just felt different to what the other two tanks were doing at the. I would also disagree that it was easier to manage your MP, sure it came in faster but we also had a lot more skills to dump that MP into which could then be further buffed by using Dark Arts which also used a good chunk of MP. To offset this we had skills like Blood Price and Blood Weapon that could be used in tandem with it all to help us sustain all of it. It was a dance I rather enjoyed (one that SB helped start tearing apart).

What other aspects am I ignoring exactly? The main hook of DRK now is using delirium for a burst window with blood spilled, just like Warrior does with its skill and fell cleave. We build a gage to dump said gage into a DPS move just like Warrior. What happened to Dark Dance and OG reprisal? What happened to the dance we did with Blood Price during big pulls or Blood Weapon during boss fights? TBN is just about the only original skill (though it’s an amazing skill tbh) I feel we have at this point besides Living Dead. And honestly I don’t consider Edge and Flood new either, they’re just replacing and function similar to the old Dark Passenger/Dark Arts combo that was prevalent in HW. I will concede though that I do like how TBN can proc a free Edge or Flood. And to say we’re more complex than Warrior isn’t exactly hard anymore as from what I’ve heard it was dumbed down greatly compared to before.

As a foot note I’d like to add that I personally miss haste and miss more than one combo.

If it is not rocket science, why can't you do it?

[EpicOverlord85]

If it is not rocket science, why can't you do it?

Who said I couldn’t? XD

[Inuk9]

Who said I couldn’t? XD

Ok then, sry for doubting you.

[Makeda]

I think they’re just shifting it all around.

I am not sure here, this is based on podcaster comments, but is the current complexity more or less:
Fro. Simplist to most complex:

PLD -> DRK -> WAR -> ...wide margin... -> GNB
- If that is correct I can see why there would be community shock, because historically the DRK was absurdly complex. But I keep hearing the opposite about it now.
GNB... can be played simple, but then you miss a lot of your potential and have weak mitigation. So presently I am seeing a lot of people complain that it’s a paper tank. And I wonder if that is just because a lot if new people have yet to master it (likely self included as I am still leveling it). And I believe that once you do master it, it is very complex.

But if it is true that DRK is now basic complexity, that would make a lot of people think tanks in general have become less complex.

[jetfire117]

flexible is the new excuse to defend current DRK? well i guess is flexible yes when all the skills don't have any sinergy and you unique job is keeping on recast with you resource gain rate is so low letting have a huge window to operate without much effort. i could say then ARR PLD was the most flexible tank ever made right?

but let's not focus only on one aspect of the job, the resource management can't be consider proper management at the rate we gain resources right now if we compared to how DRK use to be. yes in SB can be consider to high but that was the deal, the job performance depend of how the player was able to generate and expend resources as fast a posible something is no longer the case saddly for good or bad. we can argue that the oGCD is still a part of DRK management yes and the only thing that remain more worse that better to his older versions since most of then has been nerfed, edge is a nice adition but a terrible one at the same time bcs TBN punishment is horrible now so we can say DRK go for worse in that department too.

the only mechanics that DRK have now is a pretty low resource management and blood weapon/delirium, thats literally makes 66% ofDRK mechanics being based or copy of WAR ones, the rest are just oGCD without any kind of purporse more that keep on recast and don't have to pay atention on any other personal stuff of the job, in fact DRK is so sad it need desperately a NIN to provide TA and have some kind of resource strategic bcs without that you just always trow you stuff when is viable and nothing more with is what literally happens on all the partys there is no TA.

SB DRK can be many things depending of the person but at least it was loyal to his original mechanics and improve certain aspects of the job instead of rip everything and create or copy a mindless sustitutes.

You serious? Stormblood gutted DRK far worse than in shadowbringers. In SB we said goodbye to delirium, shadowskin, dark dance, bloodprice+bloodweapon big pull combo, low blow/reprisal procs, scourge, and any sort of "difficult" and thoughtful management only to be stuck with mindlessly spamming dark arts and then built up blood to mindlessly spam dark arts even faster and longer with the occasional not-fellcleave on the side. Heavensward DRK had a lot more original mechanics than just mindlessly spamming dark arts and you clearly say you mained it in HW so you should know what I'm talking about it. You can hate shadowbringers DRK all you want and I agree with some of your points, but don't sit there and try to say SB DRK was loyal to HW's identity because it was long dead once the expansion came out.

[kidalutz]

It does feel dumbed down, though TBH not like we used threat combo much in the past either way, not mentioning swapping back to tank stance. At least openers were more interesting.

What they should have done is making it impossible to hold aggro no matter what without regular stance dancing. What they did is they literally "threw the baby out with the bathwater" - gutting whole threat management out of the game turning stance into braindead x10 threat multiplier. And at the same time they were too lazy to replace the dps "rotation" with something more interesting than having only 1 basic combo.

OTOH at least we are not dumbed down to SCH level, that now presses only 1 key.

As a healer I can only say this would be a terrible idea at least 70% of my runs I'm stuck trying to keep up a tank that already dont know how to use a cooldown for defense so they dont pop like a water balloon I can only imagine how bad it would be if they had to stance dance as well.