SE needs to do more to help bad players

[Insertcoins]

Squeenix doesnt need to do anything more for bad players.

They need to let the community use available tools to let it police / teach itself.

Your heart's in the right friend.. but SE tried to let us police itself... you know what that got us? The new TOS cause we as a base do a horrible job of policing ourselves. :c

[Kaethra]

As one of the people who fails mechanics regularly, I just wanted to address this assumption that I see being made throughout this thread.

Background: 19 years of MMO gaming, from EQ to EQ2 to Rift to GW2 to SW:TOR to TESO to here. No, I never played WoW.

I'm going to address this since I have not done so recently. I think the last time I did was in 4.0 possibly.

Previously I said there are Good players who learn the fights when explained to them, better players who ask for tips, and then bad players who simply won't get better either because they are good enough but slack or simply don't care enough to.

I stand by that. But there is a subset of players within those descriptions. No where in those descriptions did I mention player skill. Only mentality. With player skill itself. One could say there is a spectrum. And mostly you'd be correct on that. Some people, despite doing their best, despite trying their hardest will lack the hand eye coordination, the ability to separate what is going on their screen, or whatever various obstacles to their play, will sometimes just not be able to succeed where they need to.

But here's the thing. If I go into a new fight, and fail. That doesn't mean I'm on the low end of that spectrum. Ignorance doesn't make one a low skilled player. Especially when on the second attempt someone like me will likely excel and everytime I run something my performance usually improves. So what I'm going to discuss is not a spectrum of skill levels. But one of potential.

To put it shortly, players typically get it. Or they don't.

I had a longtime friend of mine from EQ. Known them for about 16 years now. They're alot like Snapdragyn. Played all of the same games. I'd almost say they were the same person. But no, my friend did play WoW for a bit. But this friend of mine would likely not be able to successfully navigate a Primal fight. Not the hard 8 mans, but the first three 4-man ones. To be fair I think many of the solo duties would give them trouble, especially since they have level syncs.

There's no amount of tutorial, no amount of videos. In fact the tutorials would block their progress if a friend like myself couldn't carry them. I found out about a year or so ago that they were playing ESO. And I was a bit shocked. How could they manage that game? Well.. they sort of didn't. Well they did but not in the same way I did. They crafted all the gear they used and stayed the hell out of normal dungeons. Normal dungeons aren't required to clear for the Main Story. The main story and the overland quests are quite easy but challenging for a player like this.

Some players cannot look at abilities and know how or when to use them. Some players just can't grasp the fact that they need to preemptively move in some parts. There's just nothing they can do, its simply not going to happen unless they get it into muscle memory. But lets be honest, that's a slow painful process that requires 7 people plus the person having issues to go through. That sort of patience doesn't exist.

And here is why such things cannot be tested, nor practiced outside of live play:

We all know there is a meta rotation. For example, BLM is pretty easy right? On single target you Blizzard 3, Enochian, and.. wait mechanic happening. Stuff is now happening that is going to cause enochian to fall off. Well of course some of us know to use Umral Soul, maybe a swiftcast or some other tool to make sure we keep our buff up. But how is the game going to teach that? And even in that specific example of something crazy happening right off the bat, what about other fights? Every fight is unique. Its not enough to know a rotation, but to understand the underlying theory of each ability use in sequence. This way you can alter the rotation on the fly.

While dodging crap, while predicting what the boss will do next.

There's no teaching that. I mean I can tell people why I'll use a Blizzard 3 first instead of a Fire 3. But i can't tell them when to skip ahead. I mean I can give examples, but like I said, its going to be theory, not reality. And those players as I said who 'get it' will understand the theory. The ones who don't will struggle. It may even hurt more than help as they will apply it to situations they shouldn't.

Players will simply need to do the content they are capable of doing. From my experience, this game does a great job slowly elevating difficulty as one levels. But when one gets in over their head they do need to understand that they are over their head. And probably should bow out when that happens. This doesn't mean people ignorant to a fight need the boot. It means those who are hitting a brickwall and are dragging down the group need to understand this. The one I quoted says they in fact do this. Some others.. well don't. And that can be a problem.

But in my experience those players who 'don't get it' are hardly in the hardest content. They don't touch it. And those who are there and fail, usually learn it pretty quickly, or they don't.

With that said, my requirements from my group members are pretty easy.

- If you're a tank, tank and keep stuff off peeps.
- If you're a healer, heal peeps. Try not to let people die. Do dmg if you want, but try not to let that get in the way of heals.
- If you're a dps, then kill stuff.
- Don't be a bot.
- Don't be afk. Afks for minor emergencies are fine. If your wife went into labor, get off the game for Christ's sake.
- Be positive. Have fun. If you're not having fun, you're bringing my day down. I don't need that, no one does.
- Try your best not to cause total failure. This is the toughest one, but I'd say 98% of players handle this just fine. This tightens up in higher content. And truthfully, it should.

So if you're a random Ninja or whatever that can't get the Right/Left Knot thing in Holminister Reach down and die. I'll get ya up if I can rez. Its not going to be a big deal. I'm not going to boot you. Now if you're the tank or healer and I don't have the ability to rez and we're on our 3rd wipe because of it. Well.. I need the dungeon done. I'll give a pointer, I'll give a hint. I'll even put a marker on myself if needed so you can just follow me and stay with me. But if all that doesn't work. And the group is still wiping.... well I've done my due diligence in helping and well I need to be getting that dungeon done. So expect a dismissal in that case. Nothing personal.

And while I can't speak for most, I do wish people had that much tolerance for players.

[Avidria]

Let me use a parser without risk of getting banned.

Let me help *myself.*

[Mikhaill]

All i want them to do is to implement a giant half screen report with "USE YOUR AOE YOU DUNKY" written in it and being it shown to everyone who is not using their aoes when fighting multiple enemies at once. Only that and it will be golden.

And they still won't. You could literally have neon signs, sound effects and voice overs and they still won't lmao.
Games already a puddle of easiness.
After Steps being nerfed, we all had to beg and plead against "Wiping" city to spare the nerf bat because people can't be asked to learn for a second and cry they can't
roll their faces into the keyboards. I'm not gonna sit here at level 70+ and tell you to move out of AoE's. Should know by now.
That's when they get the kick bucket. At that point (save if they used a jump potion and even then they should learn or they get kicked) then dunno what to tell ya.

[Barraind]

Your heart's in the right friend.. but SE tried to let us police itself... you know what that got us? The new TOS cause we as a base do a horrible job of policing ourselves. :c

That is very true. :|

I dunno, after too many years of EQ and then WoW, and Guild Wars, people just learned that they either had to carry their own weight (and lets be honest, that weight wasnt always significant, or at times it was just "RUN AWAY IF THE BIG RED THING HAPPENS" or "DONT MOVE AT ALL, JUST STAND THERE AND DONT DO ANYTHING EXCEPT PRESS ONE BUTTON BEFORE THE FIGHT STARTS, LITERALLY DONT TOUCH ANY OTHER BUTTONS OR MOVE EVER" [and that didnt even work so we had to 2 box a bard...]) or they should expect to sit on the sidelines and watch (and our rampage tank hated himself for 2 years while he boxed someone elses bard for them).

And people either got better or they sat and watched.

[Enjuden]

This responses in this thread seem insanely condescending. Just because you post here basically saying over and over, that if the devs gave us more tools to learn mechanics that people wouldn't be able to learn anything more using said tools. You ppl complain that people are bad, and when someone suggests to add tools to learn the fights, you completely and with NO proof, say people aren't capable to learn in anyway with additional help. Just get over your selves seriously... But coming from these forums this kinda thing comes as no surprise here.

There is proof. There's years, and years, and years of guides to work through, and every normal trial and 24 man, there's the novice network, there's the game itself telling you to read the tooltips, with the game itself showing you every mechanic, and introducing each and every single one by itself in a slow manner so they can see how it can be done.

Only a lunatic would say that there isn't tools. There is tools both in game and out of game. They just, never, bother. It's been 3 expansions. If they can't be bothered, then too bad.

Edit: You can never teach the very bottom of the percent without throwing them out of the game until they learn via an MSQ gate. There is a reason they are the very bottom.

[LunarEmerald]

Let me use a parser without risk of getting banned.

Let me help *myself.*

There is no risk unless you harass people in-game about their dps.

[NanaWiloh]

And they still won't. You could literally have neon signs, sound effects and voice overs and they still won't lmao.
Games already a puddle of easiness.
After Steps being nerfed, we all had to beg and plead against "Wiping" city to spare the nerf bat because people can't be asked to learn for a second and cry they can't
roll their faces into the keyboards. I'm not gonna sit here at level 70+ and tell you to move out of AoE's. Should know by now.
That's when they get the kick bucket. At that point (save if they used a jump potion and even then they should learn or they get kicked) then dunno what to tell ya.

I remember when Weeping city came out. Forgall and Ozma the two road blocks of weeping city. Its still too this day sad that people wipe on Ozma, his mechanics are as brain dead as they come. Did dying grasp a few nights back watched my co- healer stand infront of the boss and take dark blast too the face. They saw the boss charge up the attack saw everyone move to the side but just stood there!! Boggles the mind

[BatLW]

the only thing squenix needs to do is to double or triple the msq duty difficulty and modify the encounters for every role instead of a single brain dead encounter because dps roles have no heal and healer roles have low dps

or bring in real consequences. if you die to the same encounter 3-4 times your char should be deleted.

[SturmChurro]

A better tutorial might help somewhat for new players, and a boosted tutorial like WoW's would at least show a new player their skills. However, if a bad player or a new player actually want to learn how to play their class, they can read their skills, and practice it on their own, or research on their own if they really want to. Most don't want to, so a new tutorial would only be marginally effective for those who actually want to learn.