SE needs to do more to help bad players

[Keridwyn]

Considering how little DPS Healers are actually able to contribute, if this is what is causing the mobs to take forever to die, you have bigger issues than a Healer not DPSing.

In the case of WHM that statment is false. They can put out quite a bit of damage especially in large group pulls. Also considering the stun on Holy you are preventing damage on the group for the duration, there is no reason for a WHM to not holy at least once on large pulls. If the tank is dying before the first Holy goes off, there's a mitigation issue.

[Rivxkobe]

You're assuming people would use a "Mechanics test zone".

I'm pretty sure we all know that "bad" players are players who don't actually care about being "good" or being effective and efficient. They just want to play how they want, everyone else in the party be damned. Then they complain about something being to difficult if they can't clear it because, either:

A. Its solo content and they can't get carried through it.

or

B. People don't want to carry them through it.

Because they should be able to click whatever buttons they want because they pay a sub so the game should cater to their laziness.

There are some that want to get better, but I wouldn't even consider them "bad" players, overall. They may be bad in terms of mechanics and/or damage but at least they are trying and willing to learn and grow.

Just like moving out of stuff that doesn't one shot you isn't a requirement as a DPS, but as a healer I am almost certain you appreciate it.

No it isn't. The role is to deal damage. That's it. As long as the healer can keep you alive, you can keep doing damage even if you're taking damage.

This is an example of what I am talking about. "I'm going to play poorly because even though I should be a team player the only thing that matters is me and what I want to do. The game has mechanics I should do or that let me do better and improve my gameplay but I don't care."

EDIT:

I can't take anything else you say seriously when you're classifying this as a "major offense". And I'm not going to waste my limited number of daily posts to explain what I've already explained in numerous other threads. I will make the statement once and let people REEEEE about it to their hearts' content.

DPS is not a requirement of Healers.

It's not a requirement but if you refuse to deal damage EVER as a healer then you are, imo, a bad player because you are using less of your kit and being less effective than you could be.

If you don't DPS but want to learn that is a different story. But straight refusing to help kill the enemies and stating it is not your "role" to deal damage just shows, to me, that you are not very good.

[Nixxe]

I'm pretty sure we all know that "bad" players are players who don't actually care about being "good" or being effective and efficient. They just want to play how they want, everyone else in the party be damned.

This may be true of some people, but I think it's a rather uncharitable and inaccurate interpretation generally. I strongly suspect that a lot of these players are simply new to MMORPGs and are coming from more traditional single-player RPGs and the like. Those games are generally a gigantic pass/fail system where you either win or you don't. You might be shown damage numbers for your abilities, but you typically won't have anything like DPS reported. There probably isn't much of anything in the game to help theorycraft stats or ability choices. The games themselves generally aren't terribly difficult and may very well have multiple difficulties. This means that you can kind of just do what you want and play your way, but it also means you probably have little to no idea how much of a difference it makes to play one way versus another. After all, the only feedback the game gives you is if the boss dies or not. FFXIV and other MMORPGs borrow enough from those older games that they at least superficially resemble them, so players probably bring their same basic approach with them into the game, where they're going to stick with it until they have their eyes opened.

[Enla]

While I would love to see an expansion to the Hall of Novices there's really no point unless actually doing the content was mandatory. Which, to be fair, I do think should be the case before Sastasha or if someone job skips a role for the first time. However even if it was made mandatory bad players will still persist and still demand concessions. At a certain point in this game people aren't playing poorly due to inexperience but instead just plain old apathy and with the knowledge they'll be carried anyways. Nothing will change the people who think they're owed the chance to be carried through everything because 'we don't pay their sub'. At least nothing that wouldn't cause a huge outcry.

[Rivxkobe]

This may be true of some people, but I think it's a rather uncharitable and inaccurate interpretation generally. I strongly suspect that a lot of these players are simply new to MMORPGs and are coming from more traditional single-player RPGs and the like. Those games are generally a gigantic pass/fail system where you either win or you don't. You might be shown damage numbers for your abilities, but you typically won't have anything like DPS reported. There probably isn't much of anything in the game to help theorycraft stats or ability choices. The games themselves generally aren't terribly difficult and may very well have multiple difficulties. This means that you can kind of just do what you want and play your way, but it also means you probably have little to no idea how much of a difference it makes to play one way versus another. After all, the only feedback the game gives you is if the boss dies or not. FFXIV and other MMORPGs borrow enough from those older games that they at least superficially resemble them, so players probably bring their same basic approach with them into the game, where they're going to stick with it until they have their eyes opened.

Oh yeah. I mention that in my post. Players who are actively attempting to get better and adjust and learn from their mistakes are, imo, not bad players. Being new has never been an excuse in my eyes as to playing extremely poorly. We all started this game with varying amounts of knowledge, but of no actual experience playing FFXIV and many of us have improved. If a player is new, and you mention they should do something or x is better than y and they straight ignore it or argue with you then they are a bad player, if they respond and/or ask questions and want to learn the game then they are a good player.

Some people may say they are bad, but if you suggest to them something or give them tips and the response and improve then they are not a "bad" player.

This is all my opinion btw.

[Makeda]

FFXIV has the largest population of absolutely awful players and is the only MMO that I know of ( I could be wrong feel free to correct me) that doesn't openly allow parsers, people to correct each other for better gameplay, and or simply removing people without like a 2 hour cool down.

Someone has never played LFR in WoW...
Or a world boss in Guild Wars 2...

The only MMO I have seen with good players is ESO. I am still trying to figure out why... but my theory is that they aren’t good... but that the mechanics of pre-max level boss fights and open world trash foghts just don’t differ much. Which means that if I ever hit max level there, I might find the same things as anywhere else.

All this said, I am no pro either.

What makes good players is a static that doesn’t give up after only 372 wipes... And I am not really exaggerating there.

Modern players lack wipe tolerance.

Extremely high wipe tolerance without “abandoning these scrubs” is the ONLY way to build up skill.

You want better players? Find the worst 7 other people you can, and stick it out with them all the time, run after run after run of slamming into walls and falling off ledges.

One day you will find out you and they are good.

Constant practice with each other is the only solution. No dev can short cut that for you. Start tolerating “bads” or you and they will never improve together.

[Ayuhra]

You do not need parsers in order to see who fails core mechanics.
SE will never ban anyone if he constructively criticizes another player and offers solutions, nor will they ban you if you kick players.

While I do think a "training hall" would be nice, WoW did attempt such a thing at one time and it didn't make much of a difference.

Why? Because 90% of the bad players are not interested in learning/improving. They just want to mash buttons and kill stuff / get rewards. Present them with a challenge and they will simply abandon the endeavor.

The Proving Grounds in WoW were a good idea that should have been carried forward more than they were. They were not required to do anything BUT if you signed up for a PuG it would display your Proving Grounds rating (Gold, Silver, Bronze or nothing). That meant the best way to get yourself into a position where you could do harder content was to complete Proving Grounds at a Gold level.

They also provided Proving Grounds Endless where you would just keep going as long as you could. It rewarded a title but IIRC nothing higher than Gold was shown when signing up for a PuG so there was no social push to do Endless.

SE could implement a Proving Ground type thing. Hall of the Novice is similar, albeit much less difficult.

I say this as a garbage player, too.

Someone has never played LFR in WoW...
Or a world boss in Guild Wars 2...

The only MMO I have seen with good players is ESO. I am still trying to figure out why... but my theory is that they aren’t good... but that the mechanics of pre-max level boss fights and open world trash foghts just don’t differ much. Which means that if I ever hit max level there, I might find the same things as anywhere else.

The Elder Scrolls Online is an odd beast. The base dungeons tend to be very easy and merciful because of the huge diversity of builds the game allows people to have. Harder dungeons start to bring out the lack of positional awareness some players might have, or lack of rotation or gear sets that make no sense. Falkreath Hold, for example, is brutal and WILL start testing your patience if you go in with a bad group... Or a group of vampires. I went in with all vampires once, that was a...treat...

[Vesuvia34]

I agree with you, but the job role quest IS weeding out people who can't figure out mechanics. I know someone that can't finish the MSQ cause they can't figure out the mechanics of the physical dps role quest chain, so they are eveling up everything to 80 to see if something will help xD

or in some instances or raids you tell them to watch the videos, or at least read the guides that are available, but too many say they want to go in sight unseen. And for most players, that might be alright, but for the ones you refer to, its a really bad idea.

[Destati]

One thing I would have appreciated as I leveled different classes is if the job trainers actually... you know, trained you. Most of the time when you learn a new move at the end of a quest it feels kind of thrown in there with little to no explanation of how the action worked or when you should use it. Sure, that's what the tool tips are for, but when I first started playing the game I didn't know the value of actions, I mainly looked at how high the raw potency was. I had to learn from other people (who didn't explain to me in the kindest of ways mind you) how important DoTs and AoEs are.
I know all this stuff now and I'm glad for it, but I would have loved to have more of an in-game explanation of things. As far as I know DNC's first quest has the closest thing to an actual tutorial for its job.

[Nims]

Snip

I've done both and while I agree there's some complete shitters there, they aren't as bad and in such a large number as here.

The people you're talking about aren't the same group of people that OP and I (or atleast just me) are talking about. I'm talking about people like an AST I came across last expansion that was trying to do savage and had the nerve to ask "What's lightspeed?" How do you make it to end game and try to raid and not ever read your tooltips?? He got absolutely flamed and rightfully so but we could only do so because we were in discord. Guess who reads tooltips and reads guides now?

I agree that people here have next to zero wipe tolerance but practicing and wanting to get better =/= bad player.

Edit: Also no one has to tolerate bads, there's this weird middle ground between garbage players and really good players; average normal players. You can always play with them and you guys can always practice and improve together.