[SPOILERS] The Fate of Ascians

[RowanLauron]

I'm clinging onto the idea that our character is the dissident ascian we hear about. Makes sense to me at least. A broken ascian soul being slowly put back together. No telling how powerful we'll be eventually.

I mean, given we're pretty much the only ones who can teleport around aether crystals and attune to them makes me think we're more than just heroes blessed by Hydaelyn. Technically all the scions are, but we're still even more special.

Would be interesting if the rejoining would fully awaken us as an ascian. May actually be a bad thing for the zodiark followers ironically.

[Bright-Flower]

I have a slightly related question from the end.

So in phase 2 and the cutscene after it seems Emet draws strength from the prayers and hopes of his people. But....shouldn't those people be fragmented across the different shards/source? Not hanging around in the darkness with Emet? And if they're the souls offered up to Zodiark shouldn't they be sealed away with Zodiark? Where exactly are they coming from?

[SenorPatty]

I have a slightly related question from the end.

So in phase 2 and the cutscene after it seems Emet draws strength from the prayers and hopes of his people. But....shouldn't those people be fragmented across the different shards/source? Not hanging around in the darkness with Emet? And if they're the souls offered up to Zodiark shouldn't they be sealed away with Zodiark? Where exactly are they coming from?

There's a term for this, I forgot what it's called but for now, the best way I can explain it is metaphorical conjuring. In the same manner he made up Amaurot from memory is the same way he made up those masks/ghosts, to visually convey his despair, to show you the anguish of his people.

[Jaywalker]

Nah, he doesn't feel guilt at all. He's desperate to get back everything he lost and he has no remorse to his actions because from his perspective, we're incomplete, something he shows overt disgust time and time again( "moral relativism", remember? His quote). Multiply that by the factor of time and you got a apathetic godlike entity who only shows true emotions when it comes to his home and his own people. Genocide means nothing to him because in his eyes, not only we are unworthy but we're an affront to his perspective on existence because of the price his people paid.

Lot of people ingame and the forums feel bad for him and all that and felt bad killing him. His tragedy is sad to me but I don't feel bad about killing him at all because no mattwr how sad of a backstory a person has, I will never feel terrible about killing that person to protect my family, my friends and my home.

With respect, your interpretation is just that--an interpretation. Doesn't mean it's the universal correct one or that mine's wrong. Emet-Selch is interesting for being a weird and ambiguous character.

The scene at the ladder, he actively works to remind himself that he needs to treat other people as less than him and other Amaurotines. He's also a character who builds himself consistently through inconsistencies. He talks about the scorn he feels toward mortals, but has spent more time trying to connect with them and mingling with them than any other Ascian that we know. He actively spends little time with the surviving Ascians, as confirmed by Elidibus. Emet-Selch tries to make insults about us (IIRC) clinging to lost causes, only for Y'shtola to point out he has spent god knows how long painstakingly making a fake Amaurot from his memories of somewhere dead and gone. He can't refute her there and just awkwardly admits she's right. This is an important precedent to establish.

Anger is easier than pain. It would be much simpler and less painful to claim that the genocides don't count because he's not killing real people, right? Way I see it Emet-Selch could work to convince himself of this for millenia, tell himself the counterarguments are stupid and moral relativism because seriously. What does it say about him if there's merit there? Gotta be dismissive and treat the very possibility like it's ridiculous.

Again. He said himself, he had children with mortals. Broke bread with them and died alongside them in an attempt to connect. He could have been doing things with the surviving Ascians. Frankly, I would have believed him more if he wound up closer to Elidibus' behavior-- "mercy kill" or "rescue these souls from an unnatural existence". Seek out the few unbroken Amaurotines who remain. The extreme reaction, specifically when it's paired with the weird hypocrisy and need to remind himself out loud and in front of the player, makes me think there's some doubt and tension going on.

Could you be right too? Sure, it's possible. This is fiction, part of the fun is finding a million ways to read a scene using the same evidence as well as possible. He could have just gotten sick of seeing ways that mortals aren't the same as Amaurotines and gotten frustrated by our attempts at survival.

Except there are quiet indications even in his own memories that suggest he knows he's not being totally honest with himself. We as outsiders can see the repression and desperate attempts to prevent any negativity from Emet-Selch's own memories in the shades of Amaurot. There would be no such hints at negativity even existing if he didn't know that same capacity existed even in his "perfect" city. And his whole process of needing to remind himself after being honestly moved by the display at the ladder literally shows us his process of convincing himself. That scene wouldn't be necessary and frankly, wouldn't have happened at all if what he felt was pure and honest disgust.

I felt bad about needing to kill him. It doesn't mean I don't see the need for it or that I would have done differently. It's possible to regret things came to that and wish it could have gone differently without believing you made the wrong choice under the circumstances. Ultimately Emet-Selch put the WoL in that position. And frankly, if he was realizing that his whole "they're inferior, they're not alive as much as Amaurotines" spiel was just lying to himself (another thing--he keeps moving the goalposts for that every time we meet his standards for being equals) it makes a lot of sense that he'd use us for death-by-cop. Either he wins, can continue telling himself that it's because we were less and unworthy and continue forward to bring the Amaurotines back... or he loses, is proven wrong, and the future rests with people who will survive as the equals of Amaurotines. His crimes won't continue, his memories will be put to rest, the burden of choice has been lifted and there is nothing he can do about it anymore.

To me, everything being literal and transparent for Emet-Selch makes less sense and is less interesting. Less tragic. I'm a fan of going in full-throttle with these types of scenarios rather than an answer that imo is simpler and more morally convenient. Because even if that doubt was there, if Emet-Selch is still trying to genocide all mortals then he still has to be stopped even if it kills him.

(Last bit, to clarify--there are plenty of characters who imo shouldn't have remorse or doubt or weird ambiguities because it would make less sense for them and limit what happens in human experience. Vauthry, imo it's important that we see he's extremely childlike in a lot of ways and truly believed he was doing something good. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have killed him, I mean the dude was basically doing forced cannibalism for heaven's sake. But it's important to really hammer home that he's not just evil for the sake of being evil because that's not how humans operate. Similar with Zenos, his motives for killing Varis, and his behavior throughout. He is literally crazy, there is something missing in how he thinks (empathy) that others have and it plays into every choice he makes. It would make less sense and not explain him adequately if he was just tragic. There are plenty of real serial killers like him. Saying he's only doing things for evil's sake and is a flat character misses a lot, what he does comes from apathy toward others and the purely selfish desire to not be bored/feel something and have purpose. If I thought something like that was going on with Emet-Selch or would be more effective, you have my word I'd be arguing that.)

[Melichoir]

Anger is easier than pain. It would be much simpler and less painful to claim that the genocides don't count because he's not killing real people, right? Way I see it Emet-Selch could work to convince himself of this for millenia, tell himself the counterarguments are stupid and moral relativism because seriously. What does it say about him if there's merit there? Gotta be dismissive and treat the very possibility like it's ridiiculous.

It feels more apt to me that his intial way of thinking was that the rejoining and the like was the correct course of action because their perception was that we are just incomplete imitations of the real thing. Objects that pretend to be alive but really arent (by their standards). It's more likely that through his time interacting with us, hes come to realize that yes, we are alive. This would then create a crisis of morality on numerous fronts. He seeks out justifications to stabilize his points, but it feels more likely at the end of the day his world view was falling apart and wasnt so sure resurrecting Amaurot at the cost of the realms wouldve been justified. In fact, he only resorts to rage when people are being reductive to him and his position IIRC, where he then throws out logic and doubles down.

Remember, up till now Emet didnt want to fight us because even he thought the odds werent good (weve defeated numerous ascians, sundered and unsundered alike, by this time.) Part of me honestly feels like that his involvement with us on the first was his attempt to find a middle ground between his old views and his current views. Like, if we were able to contain the light and not turn into an abomination, we would be very close to the real deal that it would not be necessary to continue their crusade. That there was another path forward besides 'destroy the reflections and life on them.' Possibly Im reading to deeply into it. But that was some of my impressions. In the end, hes was a tragic character through and through and that when he decided that the only path forward was to see his world restored at the expense of ours, there was no other choice. It was either us or him, and that sometimes is the gist of it.

...Similar with Zenos, his motives for killing Varis, and his behavior throughout. He is literally crazy, there is something missing in how he thinks that others have and it plays into every choice he makes....

Speaking of Zenos, did anyone else get the idea that if we are also being 'completed' as the calamities occur, that it may be the case other's might as well be and that Zenos is one such person? Maybe his skill and ability is so strong simply because hes more complete as well? I dont know if that was subtly implicated or not or if that is again me reading to much into it.

[Daralii]

Speaking of Zenos, did anyone else get the idea that if we are also being 'completed' as the calamities occur, that it may be the case other's might as well be and that Zenos is one such person? Maybe his skill and ability is so strong simply because hes more complete as well? I dont know if that was subtly implicated or not or if that is again me reading to much into it.

He was bred and raised to be something from what was said between Varis and Elidizenos at the end of 4.0, but we don't know what. It's possible that the Echo is the common thread between fragmented Ancients, due to what the Ascians have said about it and the fact that it awakening is always met with a vision of a star shower, but there isn't much evidence.

[Jaywalker]

Speaking of Zenos, did anyone else get the idea that if we are also being 'completed' as the calamities occur, that it may be the case other's might as well be and that Zenos is one such person? Maybe his skill and ability is so strong simply because hes more complete as well? I dont know if that was subtly implicated or not or if that is again me reading to much into it.

Lol straight up there was a point I was theorizing that the reason Zenos has no empathy might be because he's part Ascian and then Emet-Selch was all OF COURSE ANCIENT BEINGS LIKE ME CAN CRY JFC and I felt called out. XD

Also I'm mostly with you on your theory too for Emet-Selch, only exception is I don't think we were the sole reason he started doubting. Guy's millenia old and has been trying to connect with people for ages. I totally can believe we exacerbated the issue for him but the groundwork seemed like it was well in-place to me.

On Zenos, I have a looooot of questions about him and find the guy insanely interesting. I don't know if he has an Amaurotine soul or not, but I do think he is super weird and we'll learn more about his nature over time. Elidibus seeming confused by him was really interesting too. Tbh I wonder how Zenos persuaded the guy to drop his body, we know from our fight it's not exactly hard for him to just pick up again after being beaten.

[Daralii]

Lol straight up there was a point I was theorizing that the reason Zenos has no empathy might be because he's part Ascian and then Emet-Selch was all OF COURSE ANCIENT BEINGS LIKE ME CAN CRY JFC and I felt called out. XD

Also I'm mostly with you on your theory too for Emet-Selch, only exception is I don't think we were the sole reason he started doubting. Guy's millenia old and has been trying to connect with people for ages. I totally can believe we exacerbated the issue for him but the groundwork seemed like it was well in-place to me.

On Zenos, I have a looooot of questions about him and find the guy insanely interesting. I don't know if he has an Amaurotine soul or not, but I do think he is super weird and we'll learn more about his nature over time. Elidibus seeming confused by him was really interesting too. Tbh I wonder how Zenos persuaded the guy to drop his body, we know from our fight it's not exactly hard for him to just pick up again after being beaten.

Everything's apparently spiraled out of control for Elidibus, and now he's completely alone as the last complete being. At this point it seems like he just wants to throw as much power and knowledge as he can into the hands of the WoL's enemies purely to spite Hydaelyn.

[Jaywalker]

Small aside--just rewatched the first four cutscenes for the Heavensward quest (as in final quest of that patch cycle, titled Heavensward), and I finally see the extent of Lahabrea's crowning act of idiocy. Initially I just thought Emet-Selch's way of putting it was funny but looking back oh lord he was not wrong. In the moment I didn't get the extent of it but especially with context that was really, really unfortunate.

See, there were basically a billion points preceding the moment where Thordan up and ate him that Lahabrea should've gotten the hell out of dodge. The entire reason he didn't was because he had to do his nerdy show-off experiment with Igeyorhm on the Warrior of Light. The way she agreed seriously gives me the impression that he'd probably been nagging her about it behind the scenes for a while. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if he'd tried asking other Ascians too and she was just the one who actually entertained him. His face basically lights up when she's all m'kay lets do it on going Ascian Prime.

Doing a high power experiment involving your own aether and a colleague's aether while a known Ascian-killer is in the room, without necessarily knowing how it's gonna go and what the effects will be? That alone was not a good idea. But oooooh they'll be so powerful, surely then they'll be able to defeat the Warrior of Light once and for all. Right?

Right?

Lahabrea and Igeyorhm were so wiped after that stunt failed that neither one of them could stand, let alone make a dark tunnel to flee the scene. Igeyorhm dies literally the moment after she suggests retreat, when the WoL uses auracite. Lahabrea, who really really should have had a little voice at the back of his head by then going "maybe I should focus on getting out of here", instead gets cocky and comments that now there's no way for the WoL to murder him too. Still can't even stand upright. Just running his mouth.

Thordan enters with another eye. Thordan repeatedly makes ominous comments about being 500% done with Ascian nonsense for about five minutes. Thordan takes on a millenia of prayer from the notoriously devout Halonic church plus Nidhogg eye #2.

No little voice for Lahabrea. Kind of read like it didn't occur to him he was in serious trouble until the moment primal Thordan said he condemned him to death. And by then he's still staggering around like a baby deer from the Ascian Prime misadventure plus being trounced by Warrior of Light.

Horrendous judgment start to finish.

I still hope that through some weird twist he isn't totally dead just because he needs to be held accountable for how stupid that whole escapade was for him.

Insult to injury, result of Lahabrea's experiment wasn't even impressive either. Ascian Prime was not particularly powerful.

If he really, really wanted to try fusion--WoL is not where you do the test run. Even if it's the first time one of his fellow Ascians agreed to indulge him. Igeyorhm has a history of questionable judgment and of all people Lahabrea should have known better. ಠ_ಠ

[Daralii]

snip

Truly one of the greatest intellectuals of Amaurot. A master of all creation magic, and a talented orator as well!