White Mage Overflow

[Risvertasashi]

A large reason why scholars are relevant right now is because groups would rather not run double white mage

Oh, please. Scholar is not weak in the slightest. Groups aren't going to give up the amazing amount of mitigation, the raid buffs, and - well the instant heals are more a convenience for the scholar than the group, but you know.

[Lagomorph]

Oh, please. Scholar is not weak in the slightest. Groups aren't going to give up the amazing amount of mitigation, the raid buffs, and - well the instant heals are more a convenience for the scholar than the group, but you know.

Amazing mitigation? Sure, but there's nothing in this game that needs to be mitigated at all. Maybe in savage? And white mages have temperance anyways.

Raid buffs? Chain stratagem is a lot less significant than a lot of people think, and doesn't even come close to covering the difference between white mage and scholar personal dps.

Scholar isn't weak. White mage is just way too strong right now. Ast actually is weak though, I feel bad for them.

[Risvertasashi]

Amazing mitigation? Sure, but there's nothing in this game that needs to be mitigated at all. Maybe in savage? And white mages have temperance anyways.

Raid buffs? Chain stratagem is a lot less significant than a lot of people think, and doesn't even come close to covering the difference between white mage and scholar personal dps.

Trick attack is also only 10 seconds long. Stacking raid buffs during burst windows matter.

And, yes, healer composition doesn't matter outside of savage. That's always been the case. You balance around savage because that's where jobs are tested and pushed to their limits. Outside of savage, WHM never needed buffs. Nor did AST in stormblood. In fact, outside of savage, we didn't need any job balancing changes at all, with DPS and tanks too.

And, yes, scholar shields are pretty ridiculous. It makes me feel bad for Noct ASTs, how weak and pitiful their shields are in comparison.

But, we both agree AST needs some love. But that's also the only thing that needs to happen. As mentioned on page 1, WHM clear rates will drop when AST is stronger.

Not that I necessarily expect SE not to do it - but buffing Scholar as this point would be an encore of Stormblood balancing.

[Lagomorph]

Trick attack is also only 10 seconds long. Stacking raid buffs during burst windows matter.

And, yes, healer composition doesn't matter outside of savage. That's always been the case. You balance around savage because that's where jobs are tested and pushed to their limits. Outside of savage, WHM never needed buffs. Nor did AST in stormblood. In fact, outside of savage, we didn't need any job balancing changes at all, with DPS and tanks too.

And, yes, scholar shields are pretty ridiculous. It makes me feel bad for Noct ASTs, how weak and pitiful their shields are in comparison.

But, we both agree AST needs some love. But that's also the only thing that needs to happen. As mentioned on page 1, WHM clear rates will drop when AST is stronger.

Not that I necessarily expect SE not to do it - but buffing Scholar as this point would be an encore of Stormblood balancing.

Regarding chain, I posted this a while back...

According to stone sea sky hp values, whm is expected to do around 1.2k more than sch is. Now in 8 man content, if you have a group of skilled players who are able to both use raid buffs well and play their classes to their full potential, you'll rarely exceed 75k raidwide dps. Chain stratagem is 10% crit buff for 15 seconds, with a 120 second cooldown. Essentially it's a 5% damage buff with 12.5% uptime. This raid buff would provide 469 dps if raid damage is constant throughout the encounter. Now this isn't quite true; classes have burst phases to account for, so we can assume that this buff is slighly more potent that 469 dps in a high-end group. In your average pug, I can guarantee you that it is worth far less than 469 dps. But the dps difference between whm and sch is nearly triple this.

You can stack buffs, but that will not nearly increase the value of chain to a number that would make scholars compete with white mages right now.

Also hard disagree that healer balance doesn't matter outside of savage. You can change some things about the various healers that would have an enormous impact on their dungeon experience without it affecting savage at all. What if gravity had a stun? That would be a game-changer for ast, and literally would not change how they function in savage. Saying balance only mattered in savage is kind of just an excuse to ignore balance in all other areas. There is absolutely no reason that white mages should be this far ahead in dungeons as it is right now.

Lastly, regarding shields and noct ast: Adlo gives a shield with a potency of 375, while aspected benefic gives a shield with a potency of 500. Succor gives an aoe shield with a potency of 225, while aspected helios gives an aoe shield with a potency of 250. Noct ast shields aren't weak; the problems with noct ast run a lot deeper than shield potencies. If it were just about shields, then it wouldn't matter in the slightest because, like I said, shields are largely unnecessary. If the upcoming raids have the same difficulty as stormblood, then very few mechanics will actually require shielding. Usually you can get away with just full hp. Sure shielding is helpful, but it's never been a requirement except in maybe the final fights of each tier.

[Risvertasashi]

Also hard disagree that healer balance doesn't matter outside of savage. You can change some things about the various healers that would have an enormous impact on their dungeon experience without it affecting savage at all. What if gravity had a stun? That would be a game-changer for ast, and literally would not change how they function in savage. Saying balance only mattered in savage is kind of just an excuse to ignore balance in all other areas. There is absolutely no reason that white mages should be this far ahead in dungeons as it is right now.

So if we follow this to its logical conclusion, WHM has been good in dungeons and casual contents all the way back to and including Heavensward. Never has anyone ever said "wow white mage sucks at dungeons". So... what. WHM has been completely fine these last 4 years then? (And every other job that's had trouble?) We're kind of at a dead end if you believe this.

Of course, WHM also hasn't been as good in dungeons as people think. For Stormblood, at least, despite people saying "holy's stun is so good!", it was not faster at clearing dungeons than the other 2 healers - they were all about the same.

If it were just about shields, then it wouldn't matter in the slightest because, like I said, shields are largely unnecessary. If the upcoming raids have the same difficulty as stormblood, then very few mechanics will actually require shielding.

It is this very thing that makes the critlo-on-a-button so good. Unless I've just been running with a lot of bad ASTs (and mine isn't 80 yet), I've yet to see one that can shield a tank for half their HP or more (or come close), and nevermind spread that (in a slightly weakened state but still very strong) to the rest of the party. It is a cooldown, but like you say, it's not needed often.

Regarding chain, I posted this a while back...



You can stack buffs, but that will not nearly increase the value of chain to a number that would make scholars compete with white mages right now.

Saving this for last because I think this is the most important issue. People will still want the raid buffs for FFLogs, to push their standing, etc etc.

More to the point, WHM hasn't really changed that much from Stormblood. It got a small amount of mobility and a fair bit of personal DPS (you're not actually outdamaging tanks without a pocket dancer, etc). The moment SE buffs the other two healers, people are going to suddenly remember all the other things that made white mage fall behind.

Though I do kind of expect SE to buff scholar with all these complaints, and AST genuinely needs some love even though it competes directly with white mage... so I hope SE lets WHM keep the niche of having the best personal damage, at least. But I'm also hoping very much SCH doesn't get buffs, it really doesn't need to go into orbit yet again.

[aiqa]

Regarding chain, I posted this a while back...

According to stone sea sky hp values, whm is expected to do around 1.2k more than sch is. Now in 8 man content, if you have a group of skilled players who are able to both use raid buffs well and play their classes to their full potential, you'll rarely exceed 75k raidwide dps. Chain stratagem is 10% crit buff for 15 seconds, with a 120 second cooldown. Essentially it's a 5% damage buff with 12.5% uptime. This raid buff would provide 469 dps if raid damage is constant throughout the encounter. Now this isn't quite true; classes have burst phases to account for, so we can assume that this buff is slighly more potent that 469 dps in a high-end group. In your average pug, I can guarantee you that it is worth far less than 469 dps. But the dps difference between whm and sch is nearly triple this.

In EX Trails average dps difference between WHM and SCH is far closer to double than tripple 469, and in the Eden raid it's fairly close to 469.
This already was predicted, the more healing and movement needed the better SCH is going to do.