White Mage Overflow

[Sanghelios]

If you take a look at the logs site for both Titania and Innocence combined, you have 198.574 clears for WHM, followed by 150.288 for SCH and AST is way behind with only 66.252.

[MOZZYSTAR]

Astro became very complicated and busy to play. Between drawing and redrawing cards, trying to heal with weak potencies and high MP costs, it is a headache. Divination has a cool down that is way too long for what you get and the amount of work you put in for it.

No, Astro became very simple and dull to play with no strategic skills and low potencies all together.


But yeah, WHM influx was bound to happen.

[Lagomorph]

White mage is just better at everything right now . A large reason why scholars are relevant right now is because groups would rather not run double white mage (though it happens pretty often anyways). There isn't any good reason to bring an astrologian right now. In 4 man content though? White mage is even farther ahead of the other 2 healers with their spammable stun, afflatus misery, assize, etc. I'm playing white mage a lot right now and I don't even like the class that much. But why would I play anything else if I want to heal when everything else is pretty much strictly worse?

[Risvertasashi]

A large reason why scholars are relevant right now is because groups would rather not run double white mage

Oh, please. Scholar is not weak in the slightest. Groups aren't going to give up the amazing amount of mitigation, the raid buffs, and - well the instant heals are more a convenience for the scholar than the group, but you know.

[Lagomorph]

Oh, please. Scholar is not weak in the slightest. Groups aren't going to give up the amazing amount of mitigation, the raid buffs, and - well the instant heals are more a convenience for the scholar than the group, but you know.

Amazing mitigation? Sure, but there's nothing in this game that needs to be mitigated at all. Maybe in savage? And white mages have temperance anyways.

Raid buffs? Chain stratagem is a lot less significant than a lot of people think, and doesn't even come close to covering the difference between white mage and scholar personal dps.

Scholar isn't weak. White mage is just way too strong right now. Ast actually is weak though, I feel bad for them.

[Risvertasashi]

Amazing mitigation? Sure, but there's nothing in this game that needs to be mitigated at all. Maybe in savage? And white mages have temperance anyways.

Raid buffs? Chain stratagem is a lot less significant than a lot of people think, and doesn't even come close to covering the difference between white mage and scholar personal dps.

Trick attack is also only 10 seconds long. Stacking raid buffs during burst windows matter.

And, yes, healer composition doesn't matter outside of savage. That's always been the case. You balance around savage because that's where jobs are tested and pushed to their limits. Outside of savage, WHM never needed buffs. Nor did AST in stormblood. In fact, outside of savage, we didn't need any job balancing changes at all, with DPS and tanks too.

And, yes, scholar shields are pretty ridiculous. It makes me feel bad for Noct ASTs, how weak and pitiful their shields are in comparison.

But, we both agree AST needs some love. But that's also the only thing that needs to happen. As mentioned on page 1, WHM clear rates will drop when AST is stronger.

Not that I necessarily expect SE not to do it - but buffing Scholar as this point would be an encore of Stormblood balancing.

[Lagomorph]

Trick attack is also only 10 seconds long. Stacking raid buffs during burst windows matter.

And, yes, healer composition doesn't matter outside of savage. That's always been the case. You balance around savage because that's where jobs are tested and pushed to their limits. Outside of savage, WHM never needed buffs. Nor did AST in stormblood. In fact, outside of savage, we didn't need any job balancing changes at all, with DPS and tanks too.

And, yes, scholar shields are pretty ridiculous. It makes me feel bad for Noct ASTs, how weak and pitiful their shields are in comparison.

But, we both agree AST needs some love. But that's also the only thing that needs to happen. As mentioned on page 1, WHM clear rates will drop when AST is stronger.

Not that I necessarily expect SE not to do it - but buffing Scholar as this point would be an encore of Stormblood balancing.

Regarding chain, I posted this a while back...

According to stone sea sky hp values, whm is expected to do around 1.2k more than sch is. Now in 8 man content, if you have a group of skilled players who are able to both use raid buffs well and play their classes to their full potential, you'll rarely exceed 75k raidwide dps. Chain stratagem is 10% crit buff for 15 seconds, with a 120 second cooldown. Essentially it's a 5% damage buff with 12.5% uptime. This raid buff would provide 469 dps if raid damage is constant throughout the encounter. Now this isn't quite true; classes have burst phases to account for, so we can assume that this buff is slighly more potent that 469 dps in a high-end group. In your average pug, I can guarantee you that it is worth far less than 469 dps. But the dps difference between whm and sch is nearly triple this.

You can stack buffs, but that will not nearly increase the value of chain to a number that would make scholars compete with white mages right now.

Also hard disagree that healer balance doesn't matter outside of savage. You can change some things about the various healers that would have an enormous impact on their dungeon experience without it affecting savage at all. What if gravity had a stun? That would be a game-changer for ast, and literally would not change how they function in savage. Saying balance only mattered in savage is kind of just an excuse to ignore balance in all other areas. There is absolutely no reason that white mages should be this far ahead in dungeons as it is right now.

Lastly, regarding shields and noct ast: Adlo gives a shield with a potency of 375, while aspected benefic gives a shield with a potency of 500. Succor gives an aoe shield with a potency of 225, while aspected helios gives an aoe shield with a potency of 250. Noct ast shields aren't weak; the problems with noct ast run a lot deeper than shield potencies. If it were just about shields, then it wouldn't matter in the slightest because, like I said, shields are largely unnecessary. If the upcoming raids have the same difficulty as stormblood, then very few mechanics will actually require shielding. Usually you can get away with just full hp. Sure shielding is helpful, but it's never been a requirement except in maybe the final fights of each tier.

[Risvertasashi]

Also hard disagree that healer balance doesn't matter outside of savage. You can change some things about the various healers that would have an enormous impact on their dungeon experience without it affecting savage at all. What if gravity had a stun? That would be a game-changer for ast, and literally would not change how they function in savage. Saying balance only mattered in savage is kind of just an excuse to ignore balance in all other areas. There is absolutely no reason that white mages should be this far ahead in dungeons as it is right now.

So if we follow this to its logical conclusion, WHM has been good in dungeons and casual contents all the way back to and including Heavensward. Never has anyone ever said "wow white mage sucks at dungeons". So... what. WHM has been completely fine these last 4 years then? (And every other job that's had trouble?) We're kind of at a dead end if you believe this.

Of course, WHM also hasn't been as good in dungeons as people think. For Stormblood, at least, despite people saying "holy's stun is so good!", it was not faster at clearing dungeons than the other 2 healers - they were all about the same.

If it were just about shields, then it wouldn't matter in the slightest because, like I said, shields are largely unnecessary. If the upcoming raids have the same difficulty as stormblood, then very few mechanics will actually require shielding.

It is this very thing that makes the critlo-on-a-button so good. Unless I've just been running with a lot of bad ASTs (and mine isn't 80 yet), I've yet to see one that can shield a tank for half their HP or more (or come close), and nevermind spread that (in a slightly weakened state but still very strong) to the rest of the party. It is a cooldown, but like you say, it's not needed often.

Regarding chain, I posted this a while back...



You can stack buffs, but that will not nearly increase the value of chain to a number that would make scholars compete with white mages right now.

Saving this for last because I think this is the most important issue. People will still want the raid buffs for FFLogs, to push their standing, etc etc.

More to the point, WHM hasn't really changed that much from Stormblood. It got a small amount of mobility and a fair bit of personal DPS (you're not actually outdamaging tanks without a pocket dancer, etc). The moment SE buffs the other two healers, people are going to suddenly remember all the other things that made white mage fall behind.

Though I do kind of expect SE to buff scholar with all these complaints, and AST genuinely needs some love even though it competes directly with white mage... so I hope SE lets WHM keep the niche of having the best personal damage, at least. But I'm also hoping very much SCH doesn't get buffs, it really doesn't need to go into orbit yet again.

[EaMett]

To be fair, if it weren't for the convenience of having some shields during prog I could see people running double WHM. It's not a completely unreasonable thing to say. And why bring noct AST when you can bring SCH. That's basically what it boils down to.

[Lagomorph]

I don't quite feel like quoting and dealing with the annoying character limit so I'll just respond in sequence.

1. White mage has always been the best at dungeons. It just has never been this far ahead. It's not really that white mage got buffed in this area, is that's the other two healers got substantially worse. Scholar lost bane and shadowflare. Ast gravity got a huge nerf, losing 70 potency while also losing their stun on celestial opposition. Meanwhile white mage did get a pretty sizeable holy nerf, but they got to keep assize which is as strong as ever and they got afflatus misery. On top of that, white mages pretty much have infinite mp in dungeons, though this point is less significant because of the mp reductions on gravity and art of war.

2. I never said white mage was fine these past 4 years. What I will say though, is that white mage is far more overpowered right now than sch and ast ever were.

3. Crit adlo does not even come close to shielding a tank for half their hp. You also can't spread the entire shield. It's not as good as you're making it out to be. It's strong yeah, but it's not ridiculous. It would be incredibly overpowered if you could deploy the entire shield.

4. Raid buffs and fflogs is a valid point. I've said many times in other threads that SE's approach to balancing is doomed to fail every time. White mages needs their own utility.

5. 100% agree that sch should not get buffs. Sch needs some QoL changes, that's it. I want energy drain back. If they nerfed broil to compensate for that and sch did overall less damage, I'd be happy with that because the class would feel better to play. Ast does need buffs; there is no disputing that.