The Healer Double Standard

[althenawhm]

Is a kit with more buttons and lower potencies better than a kit with higher damage and fewer buttons?

How many DPS options are required to make an entertaining kit?

Would people accept a kit that required more work, if it gave us generally the same DPS output as now?

Well, it would make me feel less bad when my WHM nearly reaches DNC and NIN damage. I definitely dont feel like I earn that damage level just by pressing Glare.

[Hatstand]

Is a kit with more buttons and lower potencies better than a kit with higher damage and fewer buttons?

How many DPS options are required to make an entertaining kit?

7-10. Current WHM falls just under that range, and imo a Lily damage option would make that a good kit. Prime SCH fell into that range.

Would people accept a kit that required more work, if it gave us generally the same DPS output as now?

I would. I would accept more work for less dps output if it was fun.

[Billythepancake]

Is a kit with more buttons and lower potencies better than a kit with higher damage and fewer buttons?

How many DPS options are required to make an entertaining kit?

Would people accept a kit that required more work, if it gave us generally the same DPS output as now?

Absolutely yes, it would be better to have a dps kit with roughly the same damage just with more buttons, because then there's more to do. If I wanted to play a game that only needed 2 buttons I'd go dust off my old NES, not play a modern game.

As for the amount required, I'd say 4-5 single target and 4-5 in aoe (preferably some, if not all, useable in both situations. I cannot stand tools that are only good in certain situations. Looking at you art of war)

Would everyone accept it? Probably not, thousands, if not millions, of people play this game everyday, and no matter what you do, people will not be happy, but a lot of the current scholars seem to have the same complaint of "not enough buttons to press" in downtime, so I'd imagine, if a bigger portion of your fanbase is having the same problem, if it's and 80-20 split, wouldn't it be better to go on the side of the 80? Democracy and what not. If other people enjoy scholar as is, more power to them, but most people who have been playing scholar, even as recently as me (I didnt start until 4.2/4.3) all have similar grievances. we want more to do, 2-3 dots to manage, all with different timers, some sort of dps aetheflow use, and the ability to use aetherflow out of combat. While that wouldn't be the perfect scholar, in my opinion the more complex the better, it would at least feel like scholar, it'd at least have the same identity. And, realistically, is that REALLY asking that much, for 2-3 dots, a dps aetherflow ability, and to be able to use aetherflow out of combat, when that is stuff we have ALWAYS had?

[Reiryuu]

Would people accept a kit that required more work, if it gave us generally the same DPS output as now?

Hell yes. Especially consider all the options that could be available in a combination or something like kit: Maybe you could have a single spell series that the 3 spell did a small PBAoE heal for the combo reward. Perhaps another route that gave you some MP back like PLD's lines. Maybe an AoE one could give some damage reduction to everyone in the area of effect or make the mobs do less damage (like reprisal) for 10 seconds. The devs just clearly do not have ANY desire to even think of stuff like this for healers.

[Cyrocco]

Well, it would make me feel less bad when my WHM nearly reaches DNC and NIN damage. I definitely dont feel like I earn that damage level just by pressing Glare.

I would. I would accept more work for less dps output if it was fun.

Absolutely yes, it would be better to have a dps kit with roughly the same damage just with more buttons, because then there's more to do. If I wanted to play a game that only needed 2 buttons I'd go dust off my old NES, not play a modern game.

Then I don't really have an argument with you guys, whether they boost or decrease the amount of buttons, I really won't feel too effected.

But, to others who quote replied me, because I feel this way, I'll likely never feel DPS is a part of a healers identity, so I won't really hold a debate with people that do, I just don't see the kits as vital as you do, I dunno.

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My heart goes out to those upset with the changes, it really does, but at the same time, please don't talk down to me because I care differently about the DPS parts of healer kits.

[Kabooa]

Hell yes. Especially consider all the options that could be available in a combination or something like kit: Maybe you could have a single spell series that the 3 spell did a small PBAoE heal for the combo reward. Perhaps another route that gave you some MP back like PLD's lines. Maybe an AoE one could give some damage reduction to everyone in the area of effect or make the mobs do less damage (like reprisal) for 10 seconds. The devs just clearly do not have ANY desire to even think of stuff like this for healers.

Probably because nobody has a consensus on what they want.

Given that you have people arguing against button consolidation, I doubt you're going to see "Combos" on casters. Trust me, they're not really that interesting either, if you use the rest of the jobs as examples.

[Reiryuu]

Probably because nobody has a consensus on what they want.

Given that you have people arguing against button consolidation, I doubt you're going to see "Combos" on casters. Trust me, they're not really that interesting either, if you use the rest of the jobs as examples.

Oh, I totally agree with you there on the no consensus thing. As for combos on other DPS? Sure, they're not as interesting as say PLD or some tanks, but again, why can't/couldn't they be? I'd love to see more expansion on the combo bonuses all around. I'm just trying to toss some ideas out there. I'd really like more than glare spam peppered in with dia and a misery on occasion for dps and for... well... more things to do than just heal or to make healing more interesting-- combos, interactions, more ways to heal besides direct heal, barrier heal, weak HoT, etc.

[Sloprano]

I played sch exclusively since 2.0, because it felt good in anything. Then also played pld in sb since it felt more busy both damage and support wise. Now Im leveling and playing mch(77) and smn for the role quests and they feel good to play, always busy and something different to press.

This was how good sch felt in 3.0, only it did without combos. Just a large reactionary suite of dots, mitigation skills, ed and manual fairy control is what did it. We already have combos with ET, DT, Recit and Swiftcast. And each of those carry a choice even it's just two.

At first I thought damage combos would be too dangerous as healers would try more than ever to finish a cast before healing. Yet it might be the way to have a similar thing to Cleric stance.

Just filling up healthbars is just not that engaging compared to what was before. Id be fine with lower overall damage in seeing the original arcanist skill set returned.

[LariaKirin]

Great questions. I speak of SCH because it is my favorite job of the three, the one I played most and the one I know best.

Is a kit with more buttons and lower potencies better than a kit with higher damage and fewer buttons?

How many DPS options are required to make an entertaining kit?

Neither, because I don't think a small or big number of buttons makes the kit "better".

Let me give an example: let's say we give SCH 5 new dps buttons - five different dots (let's say 30 sec duration each - but make them variable if you think that's more interesting), each adding up to a total of 290 potency to make them preferable over Broil. Are you pressing more buttons? Yes. Will you play SCH?

How many DPS options are required to make an entertaining kit?

Not an arbitrary number of abilities, but specific types of abilities. What I think is actually more entertaining - real options, choices and trade-offs.

Examples:
- Energy Drain was good - option between healing potency and damage potency, a trade-off. You would actually choose to exercise this option depending on the circumstances.
- HW Cleric stance was good - option between healing and damage, a trade-off with a punishing refresh timer. Obviously the MIND/INT internals were stupid - but say you nerfed potencies accordingly and reworked it into a +X% damage/-X% healing stance.

- Miasma was bad. You didn't get to choose whether you used it or not - it was simply better than Broil and acted as an occasional Broil replacer. The dot tracking point is moot, because after enough play time you would simply refresh it without thought. I think one dot is fine, because it has neat interactions with buff windows and boss phase transitions. More than one I think is just button bloat.
- Shadow Flare was bad. On-cd maintenance ability, barring few circumstances. It had a neat interaction with Soil, but it made no difference. It could be good if it were reworked to an actual choice between Soil and Shadowflare.

With that in mind, let me give you an option. Take our current kit and add either HW Cleric Stance or the 5 dots in my previous example. Which would you choose? Which gives you more options?

Would people accept a kit that required more work, if it gave us generally the same DPS output as now?

It depends. I'd personally say yes, if it means actual choices and trade-offs. Energy Drain? Yes, please. Something that interacts with the fairy gauge or Aetherflow? Yes, please. Miasma back? No, thanks. The 5 dots? No, thanks.
It'd also say no in the case of one healer requiring more work than the others for similar results. I noticed alot of preference for complexity, but just take a quick look at the state of SMN and AST. AST is a special case at the moment because it's undertuned, but I don't see the majority of players jumping on the AST wagon if optimal card play would merely bring its contribution equal to that of SCH.



The following are just some points I'd like to make related to the issue:

SHB SCH is in a much cleaner state if your goal is to balance the healer jobs and expand upon them in the future. The ACN relics we had before were an obstacle for the long term future and I'll gladly take the changes (except Energy Drain, it needs to come back in some form) if it means there's a chance we get meaningful choices in the future.

Content is interesting, not the number of buttons. You could have 100 interesting buttons, but Sastasha will still be a chore. So will each and every dungeon.
And eventually, so will Savage. 2 buttons or 100 buttons, once you know the content so well that you mapped your GCDs for the entire fight, you are on auto-pilot. Content is designed to keep you entertained for a while - your 100th auto-pilot clear will continue to be a chore so long as content continues to lack randomized elements that actually make a difference. To give an example: what if the tethers in Titania would randomly pair any two players regardless of job?

[Mikhaill]

The problem is us not having damns thing to do on downtimes. That's the problem.
While I personally (On SCH side at least) am not upset about losing all the DPS, I can understand why other SCHs are, and hell, even WHM's.
Everyone is topped off, so you expect us to sit there and some of us, chill out because there's literally nothing else to do.
If you're gonna remove crap, you gotta give us something to compensate it.