The "Wow Refugee's" impact on the FFXIV Community?

[mario710]

There is observable factual data that we (and you) do have to admit. Once that data is admitted to, and it has to be at this point, it creates legitimate cause for alarm.

In design philosophies, WoW and FF 14 have different cores.

WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport. They actively highlight it, promote "world first" events, etc.

ESports are about optimized performance. There is a "Bro mentality" where "tough love" is normal behavior, especially when sport-level adrenaline is pumping.

In an ESport telling someone, "Start pulling your weight!" Is completely normal. "If you can't hack it we can bring in any number of others who will! That upsets you!? Get gud!" In WoW it's acceptable to call out parse numbers, mock openly, call out equivalent to gear scores, etc

That's NOT tolerated in FF XIV. While some players use parsers (I've opted out of those personally), they can't, in game chat, rip you over the parse. Doing so is a violation.

It's just different intended designs of both games. FF XIV is a story driven MMO*RPG* with little-to-no ESport support. You can't talk about parsing, shame players, can't be a jerk to "toughen people up." You must complete story quests and side quests to unlock them.

FFXIV encourages level 80s to play with level 20s. They incentivize rewards for re-completing content with players doing it for the first time. That kind of thing doesn't exist in WoW. In WoW story is secondary and PVP/Raids are the focus. The end game isn't A game, it is THE game.

The reason people are concerned about the WoW Refugee Situation is the ESport mentality, when injected into an RPG society is toxic.

Is that gatekeeping? I don't think so.

If you're hanging out for some casual fun, and someone breaks out a copy of Street Fighter 5 everyone has fun until that one guy, and we all know "that" guy, starts telling everyone how to play, who to play, and starts quoting things like "frame data" and "punishment mechanics."

Things become a LOT less fun.

What this means:

I'm an RPG Player. I won't touch a raid. I was traumatized by WoW raiding so badly that I'm afraid to try it in FF XIV. I *want* to try a raid, but I'm legitimately terrified of it. I would need to look up a raid video on YouTube, follow a written guide, etc, triple check my gear score, and then I'm afraid I'd face blow back for opting out of being parsed.

All of that is due to WoW trauma.

Now we are getting a massive influx of WoW players who, to them, that is normalized behavior. To them that is how MMOs are supposed to be played. That is a much larger percentage of the WoW player base than it is the FF XIV player base it does mean that the number of those ESport players, percentage-wise, is on the rise.

Thus, I'm sorry to say it, but the WoW exodus is a reason for us to legitimately be concerned.

None of this is true.

Blaming esport-mentality for the injection of toxicity is a hypothesis and nothing more.

Additionally, you do not speak for everyone. Avoid generalizing.

[Alleluia]

I'm not here to discuss semantics.

My goal is to inform any uneducated - and morbidly xenophobic - individuals who cannot grasp the idea of change that it’s an absolute certainty, and perhaps, one of the few forces we can count on.

Nothing stagnates.

I mean... I agree with the general point I think you're making, but going so far as to use "xenophobic" to discuss video game fandoms might mean this argument has gotten a bit too srs bzns, guys.

[Kaylessa]

In design philosophies, WoW and FF 14 have different cores.

WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport.

It isn't. Overwatch is an ESport, WoW is still very much an MMORPG first and foremost. ESO is an MMO yet if you want to be a part of raiding groups as a DPS, you'll have to pass a test which involves a set amount of DPS and a striking dummy. If you want to join a hardcore raiding group in FFXIV yes, you will have to pull your weight. And if you're really unlucky and don't pull your weight in casual content like dungeons, people won't rip into you in chat as much as they'll just kick you.

Anyway, Guild Wars 2 has been in constant decline for a while now. Guess where quite a few of those refugees are ending up ...

[CazzT]

The reason people are concerned about the WoW Refugee Situation is the ESport mentality, when injected into an RPG society is toxic.

Is that gatekeeping? I don't think so.

If you're hanging out for some casual fun, and someone breaks out a copy of Street Fighter 5 everyone has fun until that one guy, and we all know "that" guy, starts telling everyone how to play, who to play, and starts quoting things like "frame data" and "punishment mechanics."

Things become a LOT less fun.

This is the best summary of the issue that I've seen in all 17 pages of this thread.

[Barraind]

That's NOT tolerated in FF XIV. While some players use parsers (I've opted out of those personally), they can't, in game chat, rip you over the parse. Doing so is a violation.

No, 14 just encourages massive amounts of passive aggressive hostility and a "boot and blacklist them as soon as possible because they have """differing playstyles""" (the mindset of 'mediocrity is acceptable' is different than most raiders have) " mentality, because people who are supposedly adults cant handle being told they arent good enough to handle the things they obviously cant handle.

WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport.

WoW is an MMO with a large community that said "This is the minimum effort we expect from people who want to participate in this content, and if you arent prepared to put it in, make your own groups and stay out of this one" and kept those standards going for over a decade.

[Theodric]

A significant portion of those playing this game, at least on the NA and EU servers, are technically 'WoW refugees'. Many of us left WoW at various points over the years that FFXIV has existed. Some like myself did so as of 2.0, others did so in 3.0, yet more 4.0 and yet others in 5.0.

Please stop trying to stifle the game's growth by scapegoating a particular type of player that has been around since the game's relaunch.

[Nixxe]

No, 14 just encourages massive amounts of passive aggressive hostility and a "boot and blacklist them as soon as possible because they have """differing playstyles""" (the mindset of 'mediocrity is acceptable' is different than most raiders have) " mentality, because people who are supposedly adults cant handle being told they arent good enough to handle the things they obviously cant handle.

WoW has had large numbers of those people for as long I've played it. They're just more likely to mistake themselves for good players.

[The_Last_Dragoon]

I don't think WoW refugees are doing anything except increasing the player count. It's not like toxic players don't exist, I mean we've had:

• The stigmatizing of players who pulled Hunts early (basically before the entire server got there)
• Tanking dungeons in DoL/DoH gear purposely to try and spiritbond the items for materia (this was patched)
• MSQ where you either skipped cutscenes or spent the entire dungeon watching them and being unable to join fights due to being locked out
• Blaming Bard dps whenever a dps race was never met or tanks/healers rage quitting dungeons when they see two Bards
• Heavy amounts of Tank privilege since 2.0
• Backstabbing Loot Master farms (I think this became more heavily punished at some point in HW)
• Multibox players abusing the fact that they control two characters to vote kick anyone in a dungeon.

What made the FFXIV community different is that a large majority of players don't do these things and are willing to be both patient and understanding. Not to mention that the devs do a great job with polishing content and actively taking player feedback. Sure, things can get rough from time to time, but the FFXIV community as a whole is always striving to better itself.

[Shurrikhan]

There is observable factual data that we (and you) do have to admit. Once that data is admitted to, and it has to be at this point, it creates legitimate cause for alarm.

In design philosophies, WoW and FF 14 have different cores.

WoW is less MMO*RPG* and more MMO-ESport. They actively highlight it, promote "world first" events, etc.

XIV has no more or less focus on, say, world-first clears.

WoW was built on having an immersive and massive world. While further expansions have moved further from that towards streamlining, to then call that its core and therefore distinct from XIV's core when ARR's already started with the same streamlined gear-treadmill formula of modern WoW... is absurd.

If you're hanging out for some casual fun, and someone breaks out a copy of Street Fighter 5 everyone has fun until that one guy, and we all know "that" guy, starts telling everyone how to play, who to play, and starts quoting things like "frame data" and "punishment mechanics."

Things become a LOT less fun.

It becomes a different experience. Of course when you are looking for a casual experience to the exclusion of all else and that "else" creeps in, it's invasive and unpleasant to you. But, not all experience must be casually oriented. And neither should casual players need to exclude anything and everything else just to have fun any more than hardcore players should.

I'm an RPG Player. I won't touch a raid. I was traumatized by WoW raiding so badly that I'm afraid to try it in FF XIV.

You're playing a role-playing game, but you refuse to put your character in any situation where they must actually adapt themselves and progress in a compelling circumstance?

This is no "A, therefore B". It's "A, except when B".

XIV exists in a time when the genre has evolved to create a large optimization gap. But, that didn't exist in early WoW. The largest difficulty there was just getting the 25 or 40 people together and have them follow simple directions with disconnecting. And fixed raid counts meant that, often, very little was expected of the last few people to join (the 'rounders'). And if even that experience would traumatize you, how do you even do dungeons? Item level aside, old raids were... at least as lenient as an average dungeon spam here.

The reason people are concerned about the WoW Refugee Situation is the ESport mentality, when injected into an RPG society is toxic.

If WoW is so much more Esports-intensive, as you claim--despite fflogs and clear vids blowing every bit as much here as they and warcraftlogs do there (as they have since literally Heavensward)--why would the WoW players fleeing here be the ones who love Esports above all else?

And what is this "RPG society"? Is it the kind where people type out their combat decisions in old tongue? Because, if it has to do with player-character development, WoW's surpasses XIV's; their customization and freedoms have shrunk, but ours is literally outside of the character creator. If it has to do with expansive lore, WoW still slightly has us beat, if only due to time since release. If it has to do with an immersive, expansive setting and freedom of progression... WoW has us beat again. So, where's this RPG society that exists in XIV but somehow not in WoW?

If we can take the accumulated qualitative and quantitative opinions of any and all vocal or voting players who've played either or both MMOs, we seem to have the better core story. But, does a linear story make a... role-playing game? Is that solely how we're going to say that our MMO is a true RPG and theirs is not, when they have more numerous and deeper RPG elements besides the core linear story?

[Hash_Browns]

"WoW Refugee" is just the Bogeyman of FFXIV.