Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[WhimsicalPacifist]

So Kind of Like WoW?

Nay, rather like LoTRO. Which implemented WoW skill trees subsequently alienating a large part of the playerbase and dumpster tiered a main tank class to off-tank status permanently.

[GrenGarm]

Nay, rather like LoTRO. Which implemented WoW skill trees subsequently alienating a large part of the playerbase and dumpster tiered a main tank class to off-tank status permanently.

So because a completely different company and completely different team of developers in a completely different game did it poorly six years ago in a 12-year-old game, that means Square can't do it well?

[GrenGarm]

Didn't expect so much negativity about the game offering us more choices in how we play. OK then.

[Nyoraii]

Didn't expect so much negativity about the game offering us more choices in how we play. OK then.

I completely agree with you, can't see how having more options would be a bad thing.

I think this is one of the only JRPGs I know that you don't get to choose anything of relevance to your character.

• Gear is useless, it doesn't matter, you just get the one with most ilvl and call it a day.
• No choices in customization whatsoever, m-muh "illusion of choice".

But yeah, like you said, I don't think anyone will listen to you, it's how this game has always been, I'd suggest keeping an eye on upcoming MMORPGs that might be more to your liking.

[GrenGarm]

it's how this game has always been

But it's not. Cross-class skills did offer some amount of choice/customization, even if it wasn't a perfect or robust system.

[reyre]

But it's not. Cross-class skills did offer some amount of choice/customization, even if it wasn't a perfect or robust system.

But that was a bad idea, not only did not offer anything to most clasess other than surviavility (maybe), but it became mandatory.

For example MNK, MNK could use B4B from DRG, Bloodbath and fracture from WAR. B4B was needed to actually put decent damage or at least enough to actually make MNK the selfish DPS at the time, fracture was a 1-2% dps increase at best and was directly draining TP making it kind of pointless to master and use (and i did had it on my crossbar), bloodbath was the only one that you have a use for.

So no there was not "choice/customization", not in any way that you could felt the impact of it.
Either way this will become a echo chamber were you say its negativity or people are wrong to anyone that disagrees with you , even if they have reasons for it, and say that the people agreeing with you are right or brimming with positivity, because well that is how it is.

[GrenGarm]

But that was a bad idea, not only did not offer anything to most clasess other than surviavility (maybe), but it became mandatory.

For example MNK, MNK could use B4B from DRG, Bloodbath and fracture from WAR. B4B was needed to actually put decent damage or at least enough to actually make MNK the selfish DPS at the time, fracture was a 1-2% dps increase at best and was directly draining TP making it kind of pointless to master and use (and i did had it on my crossbar), bloodbath was the only one that you have a use for.

So no there was not "choice/customization", not in any way that you could felt the impact of it.
Either way this will become a echo chamber were you say its negativity or people are wrong to anyone that disagrees with you , even if they have reasons for it, and say that the people agreeing with you are right or brimming with positivity, because well that is how it is.

I agree that the cross-class skills was a bad system, but it was a system. We don't have a customization system at present. It makes the jobs feel extremely rigid. So far no one has countered my main point that offering choice would solve most of the problems people are posting about on this forum.

I'm willing to listen to any reasoned argument. So far most of what I see is naysaying without any substance to it.

[Ardox]

But that was a bad idea, not only did not offer anything to most clasess other than surviavility (maybe), but it became mandatory.

For example MNK, MNK could use B4B from DRG, Bloodbath and fracture from WAR. B4B was needed to actually put decent damage or at least enough to actually make MNK the selfish DPS at the time, fracture was a 1-2% dps increase at best and was directly draining TP making it kind of pointless to master and use (and i did had it on my crossbar), bloodbath was the only one that you have a use for.

The old cross-class system was poorly designed, but it doesn't negate the main point here: There is no customization what so ever. If we had a snapshot of all the character right before ShB's release, we'd see every player's main job to have the exact same gear, with the exact same melds.

For better or for worst, this stem from the dev's desire to make every job extremely balanced. Therefore, they need to account for every variables and the most you put in your equation, the harder it gets to forecast how it's going to turn out. You can see it by how dummed down the stats are now: Healers care only for mind, caster for intel, physical dps for strength.. That's why since HW, the gear you get is always maxed out in their job's respective stat (making the corresponding materia useless).

I feel the equations they use to compute the difficulty of their encounter is getting more and more rigid an that's why they keep taking out stuff

[reyre]

Didn't expect so much negativity about the game offering us more choices in how we play. OK then.

Becuase its kind of a bad idea, or one that actually ends up being both not necessary and increasing toxicity. Not every game should have the same mechanics implemented. Besides that is not about the game offering "us" more choices how to play, that is about making the game more like other games.

[GrenGarm]

Besides that is not about the game offering "us" more choices how to play, that is about making the game more like other games.

I don't see how this is remotely true. Please clarify.