Almost every complaint about the ShB job changes could be solved with talents

[GrenGarm]

Nay, rather like LoTRO. Which implemented WoW skill trees subsequently alienating a large part of the playerbase and dumpster tiered a main tank class to off-tank status permanently.

So because a completely different company and completely different team of developers in a completely different game did it poorly six years ago in a 12-year-old game, that means Square can't do it well?

[GrenGarm]

Besides that is not about the game offering "us" more choices how to play, that is about making the game more like other games.

I don't see how this is remotely true. Please clarify.

[reyre]

But it's not. Cross-class skills did offer some amount of choice/customization, even if it wasn't a perfect or robust system.

But that was a bad idea, not only did not offer anything to most clasess other than surviavility (maybe), but it became mandatory.

For example MNK, MNK could use B4B from DRG, Bloodbath and fracture from WAR. B4B was needed to actually put decent damage or at least enough to actually make MNK the selfish DPS at the time, fracture was a 1-2% dps increase at best and was directly draining TP making it kind of pointless to master and use (and i did had it on my crossbar), bloodbath was the only one that you have a use for.

So no there was not "choice/customization", not in any way that you could felt the impact of it.
Either way this will become a echo chamber were you say its negativity or people are wrong to anyone that disagrees with you , even if they have reasons for it, and say that the people agreeing with you are right or brimming with positivity, because well that is how it is.

[GrenGarm]

But that was a bad idea, not only did not offer anything to most clasess other than surviavility (maybe), but it became mandatory.

For example MNK, MNK could use B4B from DRG, Bloodbath and fracture from WAR. B4B was needed to actually put decent damage or at least enough to actually make MNK the selfish DPS at the time, fracture was a 1-2% dps increase at best and was directly draining TP making it kind of pointless to master and use (and i did had it on my crossbar), bloodbath was the only one that you have a use for.

So no there was not "choice/customization", not in any way that you could felt the impact of it.
Either way this will become a echo chamber were you say its negativity or people are wrong to anyone that disagrees with you , even if they have reasons for it, and say that the people agreeing with you are right or brimming with positivity, because well that is how it is.

I agree that the cross-class skills was a bad system, but it was a system. We don't have a customization system at present. It makes the jobs feel extremely rigid. So far no one has countered my main point that offering choice would solve most of the problems people are posting about on this forum.

I'm willing to listen to any reasoned argument. So far most of what I see is naysaying without any substance to it.

[reyre]

I don't see how this is remotely true. Please clarify.

"Well, kind of like every RPG or MMO that exists outside of this one, including the other FF MMO (not talents but major choices at least)." Didnt you wrote this?

[Xieldras]

If there are good ideas from another game, why can you not adapt it? Everyone in the game industry is copying off of someone, it's not new. FF14 isn't all that special in that regard either, they had to play MMOs to get a feel for MMOs. You can still take an idea and give it a new take unique to your game.

[GrenGarm]

"Well, kind of like every RPG or MMO that exists outside of this one, including the other FF MMO (not talents but major choices at least)." Didnt you wrote this?

You said "that is not about the game offering "us" more choices how to play." How is that true? I'm trying to understand your argument here.

[reyre]

I agree that the cross-class skills was a bad system, but it was a system. We don't have a customization system at present. It makes the jobs feel extremely rigid. So far no one has countered my main point that offering choice would solve most of the problems people are posting about on this forum.

I'm willing to listen to any reasoned argument. So far most of what I see is naysaying without any substance to it.

See? i gave a reason, its pointless to have this system in this game since it will make some skills almost mandatory even in casual content, cool how you decide to ignore that.

Ofcourse you would say things like "but you dont need perfect uptime or the biggest dmg to clear causal content, this system could allow players to play in the manner they see fit" etc, etc. Ignoring the fact that customization wont work for every class, since some jobs will benefit more than others from it, i.e SMN, wheras MNK simply has to remove TK, SSS from the hot bar and it will virtually be the same (using your example of course), so there you have customization for MNK remove your skill from your crossbar. Yes i know that those were some ideas, but the point remains all things being equal customization will make either A) a class basically become OP and another useless, B) be so irrelevant and pointless that what for or Z) It will make no difference because customization doesnt fix a problem that has to do withe core mechanics of a class making it a waste of resources and time, instead more viable simple fixes are preferable than some deluded notion that the implementation of a "brand new" system will "fix" a problem by adding things to it.

This game issues wont go away if you add more player choice, this game is in itself too rigid (again for better or worse) to mesh well with that.

[TankHunter678]

The problem with the idea of Talents is that the game would be designed around the optimal ones, just as in the case in every other game that uses a talent system.

Which means you bring those talents period, making the talent system itself a joke. As is the case in most other game that uses a talent system. To use your NIN example... if the pDPS boost from not using trick attack put NIN in line with the 2nd lowest melee DPS then Trick Attack would never be used ever again due to it being a rDPS deficit to use it. At which point you may as well remove trick attack and make the talent standard because trick attack becomes a noob trap. Why? Because Trick Attack would never make up the 2k DPS difference caused by NIN going from a support DPS to a selfish DPS.

[reyre]

If there are good ideas from another game, why can you not adapt it? Everyone in the game industry is copying off of someone, it's not new. FF14 isn't all that special in that regard either, they had to play MMOs to get a feel for MMOs. You can still take an idea and give it a new take unique to your game.

I agree with this, completly, but there are caveats there, first not every idea works for every game, second is it a good thing to have in the game or is it just a gimmick, will it add somenthing or just be completely superfluous.
Because how this game is made i just dont see how cuztomization can work, since the game itself, is too rigid, any amount of "bending" one can think will probably break the game, hell this game punished NIN back in the day when it came out because it was doing more dps than expected, it punished MNKs for the TK rotation, the same with BLM with that server Tick thing (and prolly MNK is to follow suit), the devs themselves are extremely rigid.