Lack of End Game Content

[Klb600]

The same level of content? Casuals have far more content to do than raiders by a long shot.

SE has made plenty of money off of this game. There is no excuse for having the very same amount of challenging battle content as 4 years ago. Not all raiders look down on casual players. Me stating many things in this game are easy for me is not looking down on you at all. I'm sure there's something else in life that would be simple for you but difficult for me. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses...I've already said twice that I'm not looking to cripple the casual player's gameplay experiences in any way. Yet a lot of the casual crowd, instead of simply not caring that raiders are asking for more content, are actively against raiders getting more content. Are you so opposed to us having fun?

This exactly. Its a trend here whenever the hardcore crowd ask for a little more or god forbid anyone suggests anything that deviates from the formula in any way, the hivemind of this forum is quick too come in and shut you down.

Its interesting because if you read the comments, the casual crowd go on and on about how they are never running out things to do. If that is the case then they seem set. why is it that square shouldn't allocate a little bit of resources to the Hardcore who want a bit more, if there is an abundance of content already keeping the casual crowd busy and they are quote "Never running out of things to do?"

[Zabuza]

By the gods...this man truly gets it /salute sir

Thanks. I think a lot of the issues are stemming from the fact that an us versus them mentality is pervasive from both sides. It doesn't need to be that way. SE has enough funds to hire additional resources to give hardcore players something extra, while still pumping out casual content. They already funnel the funds to other games, and this is confirmed. No reason for them not to allocate more to their golden goose(FFXIV).

This exactly. Its a trend here whenever the hardcore crowd ask for a little more or god forbid anyone suggests anything that deviates from the formula in any way, the hivemind of this forum is quick too come in and shut you down.

Its interesting because if you read the comments, the casual crowd go on and on about how they are never running out things to do. If that is the case then they seem set. why is it that square shouldn't allocate a little bit of resources to the Hardcore who want a bit more, if there is an abundance of content already keeping the casual crowd busy and they are quote "Never running out of things to do?"

Good point.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Its interesting because if you read the comments, the casual crowd go on and on about how they are never running out things to do. If that is the case then they seem set. why is it that square shouldn't allocate a little bit of resources to the Hardcore who want a bit more, if there is an abundance of content already keeping the casual crowd busy and they are quote "Never running out of things to do?"

Everything available to casuals is available to more hardcore players too- even casual players who will eventually do the raid content, even if patches after release. When you have people saying '15 hours a week is super casual', then of course it's going to take a patch for them to do the same amount of content that someone who is super hardcore, which I assume means 40+ hours a week, can do in a third of a patch or less.

And yeah, casuals do have an abundance of things to do a few weeks into a new xpac.

But at least you're willing to admit that yes, putting resources into hardcore content would take from casual content. To someone who wants that content, of course that seems fine- but you need to understand that for players that feel like they get a good amount of content each xpac- enough to keep them busy, while not so much that they feel they will forever be well behind (such as how I feel about azerite grinding)- for them, how can you expect them to be fine with having resources pulled from what they like to support things they don't?

And please don't act like raiders don't do the same thing- WotLK in WoW had some of the best raids they'd done, excellent hardcore content- but it also was the birth of casual raiding, and meaningful casual endgame content. In that case it didn't even take from the raid content since ICC and Ulduar were fantastic. But, it meant casuals were getting something other than... well, rep grinding and dungeons for vastly inferior gear was pretty much the only endgame before then for casuals.

You keep complaining about a hivemind, as if players wanting something different from you makes their opinion invalid. It's like nothing has changed- you're saying casuals 'shut you down', but by degrading the opinions of anyone else to 'hivemind' you're doing exactly that yourself, shutting down different desires in the game as nothing more than mindless droning, like casuals aren't at all important.

And it isn't like there is no hardcore content- there are savages, extremes, raids, etc... and there's been clear attempts at making alternative hardcore content like BA.

And you can say that raiders don't look down on casual players- but the problem is that the way hardcores and raiders talk about casuals is very hard to interpret any other way. Even the way you constantly degrade casuals' opinions and values in the game to 'mindless hivemind' makes it abundantly obvious there's huge disdain for them.

[Nims]

how can you expect them to be fine with having resources pulled from what they like to support things they don't?

Then they need to stop being so self absorbed. This is an MMO with several different groups playing, not everything is going to be dedicated to every group and honestly, their self importance isn't on the hardcore playerbase. I don't really care for crafting, however if they need to take resources to work on it, that's fine. As long as everyone is given an equal bit of something.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Then they need to stop being so self absorbed. This is an MMO with several different groups playing, not everything is going to be dedicated to every group and honestly, their self importance isn't on the hardcore playerbase. I don't really care for crafting, however if they need to take resources to work on it, that's fine. As long as everyone is given an equal bit of something.

Again, whether you call them self absorbed, hivemind- or whatever else. You're demeaning them for wanting almost literally the same thing- more content that appeals to themselves.

Also... self importance? I don't know an MMO out there were the hardcore raiders don't think they're the most important piece of the playerbase, that don't think they're entitled to a much larger share of development, and much higher quality content with much greater rewards than everyone else.

I also see a lot of new raids, trials- savages, extremes, etc... on a fairly regular basis, always with unique mechanics, making them unique content. It seems that they already are giving a lot of development time to endgame. I don't know if it's enough or too much, I really don't- but I think comparatively, it's more than what's given each patch, in terms of unique content (rather than rewards/recipes) to crafters, gold saucer, pvp, hunts/fates/world content- and is really only outdone by the story content which I think is the central content of the game, and is content for casuals and hardcores.

[Tint]

Okay, lets compare the endgame battle content of Stormblood...

Harcore players got 12 savage raidturns, 2 ultimate raids and 7 extreme primals in SB. All with unique rewards. On top of that we have the difficult floors of deep dungeon and Baldesions Arsenal.

Casuals got 10 Expert Dungeons, 12 normal raidturns, 3 24-man-raids and 4 Eureka maps with unique rewards (lots of them actually).

And yeah, some primals with 0 replay ability...

Casuals actually lost 2 Dungeons and basically the whole deep dungeon compared to HW, so hardcore players can have ultimate raids and reach the harder floors in deep dungeon faster.

Shall we look into PvP content too? Well, better not I guess...

Actually I am not even mad about the loss of 2 dungeons, they are boring and serve no real purpose anymore without the old style relic tomestone grind... Wich also means they are questionable in their position as "endgame content". But well, expert roulette once a day does count I think.


My conclusion: Please increase the replay ability of casual content! Why do hardcore players get all the shinys? There is nothing to do besides expert roulette once a day and getting the weapon token from the 8 man / the upgrade token from the 24 man raid. The only real endgame content is the relic grind and that's simply not enough to keep us casuals busy!

[CorbinDallas]

Okay, lets compare the endgame battle content of Stormblood...

Harcore players got 12 savage raidturns, 2 ultimate raids and 7 extreme primals in SB. All with unique rewards. On top of that we have the difficult floors of deep dungeon and Baldesions Arsenal.

Casuals got 10 Expert Dungeons, 12 normal raidturns, 3 24-man-raids and 4 Eureka maps with unique rewards (lots of them actually).

And yeah, some primals with 0 replay ability...

Casuals actually lost 2 Dungeons and basically the whole deep dungeon compared to HW, so hardcore players can have ultimate raids and reach the harder floors in deep dungeon faster.

Shall we look into PvP content too? Well, better not I guess...

Actually I am not even mad about the loss of 2 dungeons, they are boring and serve no real purpose anymore without the old style relic tomestone grind... Wich also means they are questionable in their position as "endgame content". But well, expert roulette once a day does count I think.


My conclusion: Please increase the replay ability of casual content! Why do hardcore players get all the shinys? There is nothing to do besides expert roulette once a day and getting the weapon token from the 8 man / the upgrade token from the 24 man raid. The only real endgame content is the relic grind and that's simply not enough to keep us casuals busy!

If you have half a brain then you can easily do all of the extremes and at minimum the first 2 Savage floors of each tier. They're roughly of the same difficulty, just grow a pair and dive in.

[Enjuden]

Okay, lets compare the endgame battle content of Stormblood...

Harcore players got 12 savage raidturns, 2 ultimate raids and 7 extreme primals in SB. All with unique rewards. On top of that we have the difficult floors of deep dungeon and Baldesions Arsenal.

Casuals got 10 Expert Dungeons, 12 normal raidturns, 3 24-man-raids and 4 Eureka maps with unique rewards (lots of them actually).

And yeah, some primals with 0 replay ability...

Casuals actually lost 2 Dungeons and basically the whole deep dungeon compared to HW, so hardcore players can have ultimate raids and reach the harder floors in deep dungeon faster.

Shall we look into PvP content too? Well, better not I guess...

Actually I am not even mad about the loss of 2 dungeons, they are boring and serve no real purpose anymore without the old style relic tomestone grind... Wich also means they are questionable in their position as "endgame content". But well, expert roulette once a day does count I think.


My conclusion: Please increase the replay ability of casual content! Why do hardcore players get all the shinys? There is nothing to do besides expert roulette once a day and getting the weapon token from the 8 man / the upgrade token from the 24 man raid. The only real endgame content is the relic grind and that's simply not enough to keep us casuals busy!

Hardcore players get all the shinies because casual players have to be coddled. I'm sorry, but that is the truth. There is no desire for casual players to learn anything about their class, and are constantly behind by at LEAST two major patches, even going back to old expansion content. Until that changes, or SE decides to say 'too bad' when it comes to players who refuse to learn complaining that content is too hard, I doubt anything will change, for both casual and hardcore. You have to force casual players to learn if you want to break this cycle, which is a monumental task that I know people still try to do. On top of this, saying that hardcore get all the shinies is not only objectively wrong, but absurd.

On top of this, hardcore players have 14 fights. That's it. Casuals are able to do EX primals, if they are willing to learn and still be casual. You want replayability? You want more content? Learn to play.

[Nims]

You're demeaning them for wanting almost literally the same thing- more content that appeals to themselves.

False, I'm demeaning them because if they think that just because they don't want something means no one should get it, that's disgusting. Again, in mmos resources and or time will always be taken from one thing to implement something new and will cycle through like this (depending on the size of the team).

Savages and Extremes are basically all the hardcore group has and it takes next to no time to down to them. People have asked for a higher difficulty, only for selfish people to shoot it down because they don't have time or the skill to do it.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

False, I'm demeaning them because if they think that just because they don't want something means no one should get it, that's disgusting. Again, in mmos resources and or time will always be taken from one thing to implement something new and will cycle through like this (depending on the size of the team).

Savages and Extremes are basically all the hardcore group has and it takes next to no time to down to them. People have asked for a higher difficulty, only for selfish people to shoot it down because they don't have time or the skill to do it.

Really? I must have missed the post where people were saying to remove savages/extremes. Look, if it's selfish for casuals to want to not lose content in order to appease a group that I think this thread has proven beyond a doubt hates them- then it's doubly so for hardcores to want more and more development time at the expense of everyone else.

You call people disgusting and selfish, hivemind- mock their skill, look down on their play time even though what most people consider 'casual' play in an mmo would be considered fairly hardcore dedication with any other hobby.

Savages and extremes aren't all HC players have, anymore than Gold Saucer is all mini game players have- it's perhaps all they choose to take part in, but if we were to look at the amount of time people spend in extremes/savages to gold saucer, or crafting, or whatever else to the amount of time spent developing new content each patch- I would imagine far less player time is spent on the former, while far more dev time is spent on the former.

Doesn't that make you the selfish one for wanting more content than is already given- when there's several other larger niches in the game that get less? Why have raiders always felt they deserve to have far more of the dev's time than any other part of the game, even parts with far more players doing it?

But even so, despite the insults and to use your term 'disgusting' way raiders look down on casuals- I don't think there's anything wrong with you wanting more content at the expense of other players, there's nothing wrong with asking for it and for defending it. But if you want to convince the majority to not view you as elites that consider all non-elites to be garbage-

"If you have half a brain then you can easily do all of the extremes and at minimum the first 2 Savage floors of each tier. They're roughly of the same difficulty, just grow a pair and dive in."

-Maybe stop talking about them in ways like this.