Removing unnecessary buttons (SCH)

[Hatstand]

maybe cause im old and I respect tradition :P ?? nah its not it this time

now image class with:
- plate armor, def stats like paladin
- healing power and skills like WHM
- dps like paladin or WHM what ever here (I can already solo HUNT bosses on map as WHM, its take me like 1 hour to solo them but its possible)

with this class you can selftank and selfheal anything in the game and with enough time you could solo ANY raid

to answer that question that class would be OP, TOO OP / even hybrids with 2 elements are too strong, healer with too big dps is OP too imho (image that class on pvp high healing power and high dps)

what why Holy Trinity exist you are weak in something and strong in something, you can't eat cake and have cake,

that why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure, if you as healer do too much dmg, you away job from your fellow dps budy, its simple to KEEP class BALANCE

I rly wish they make harder dungeons or dungeons hard mode with harder mobs that give more exp and rewards or just M+ from wow :P


EDIT: and one more thing, would you be happy as black mage if your party member healer do same damage as you in raid ? (for example you and he do 10k dmg in the end to raid boss)
(yes yes yes, I know this game have DPS check on a lot of bosses ^^)

I see what you're saying, but I still think that both of us could be happy if we detach how interesting something is to do from how effective it is. If I was a BLM I wouldn't want the WHM to be able to do the same amount of damage I was while also healing (because then BLM would feel redundant), but I don't think that's entirely relevant. Let's say, for example, that a healer's dps contribution ranged from 0-5% of total raid dps. They'd still be well behind the DPS classes in terms of damage output, but striving to go from that 0 to that 5 could be an extra layer of challenge for the healer, once they'd mastered the healing (Maybe the best healers could even try to push themselves to 7%!). Making the means by which that dps was achieved more interesting would make the role more satisfying to play, without having any significant mechanical effect. Plus, since healer dps wouldn't be so important to the overall dps it wouldn't matter if some people struggled a bit to optimise it. So long as their healing was manageable they'd be able to do their job just fine.

You also didn't comment on the idea of adding buffs. I think that adding aoe buffs could make balance difficult, but single target buffs could be easier to balance.

(Ofc, all this is only considering group content. I'd like to see healers with enough dps out of group content to get their MSQ done in reasonable time. If you didn't want healers dpsing in group content you could have these skills morph into buffing skills when in group content)

Edit: some math- if all healers and tanks were doing around 5% of raid damage, they'd be doing less than half of what the average dps was putting out. I think that's a big enough disparity to avoid stepping on dps toes.

[Dynia]

It's not because your opinion is different; it's because you're clearly ignoring how this game works. What's next: take away dps from tanks? 6.0 "all tank abilities now result in threat management only. If you wanted to dps you should play a dps job". smh

don't be so smartass, 1st of all, I never said to reduce dps to 0 on any class
2nd of all, try to level up bishop on lineage 2 solo on low rate server, have you ever tried it ? NO ? you had totally ZERO damage skills there, ZERO NULL, you have to take freaking dual sword and use autoattack with soulshots and heal you up when you are too damaged

THAT how healers worked on old games, that why its make me laugh that scholar's DPS drama, I would kill for skill like broil or even bio on my old bishop
so don't tell me its immposible :P

and i know TOO well how this game works

[Impurrrsive]

THAT how healers worked on old games, that why its make me laugh that scholar's DPS drama, I would kill for skill like broil or even bio on my old bishop
so don't tell me its immposible :P

Indeed it is, in the old mmo. There is no need to compare with other game. its not relevant, we were comfortable with the previous dps cycle
But i do agree this drama need to end, i myself rant all i want in a day in fc chat.
Then just sleep it off, let the disappointment seeps away to start anew tomorrow
Its not that bad, just embrace the changes and move on.
SCH is still my favourite class

[EpicOverlord85]

don't be so smartass, 1st of all, I never said to reduce dps to 0 on any class
2nd of all, try to level up bishop on lineage 2 solo on low rate server, have you ever tried it ? NO ? you had totally ZERO damage skills there, ZERO NULL, you have to take freaking dual sword and use autoattack with soulshots and heal you up when you are too damaged

THAT how healers worked on old games, that why its make me laugh that scholar's DPS drama, I would kill for skill like broil or even bio on my old bishop
so don't tell me its immposible :P

and i know TOO well how this game works

That was then, this is now. Those were old games, this is FF14. Correct if I’m wrong, but you seem to be arguing that FF14’s combat should function exactly like older MMOs to keep the holy trinity “pure” which is certainly not a sentiment I can say i share. Personally? I like the fact it plays differently.

Also how would a zero damage dealing healer get through the single player content we already have?

[EpicOverlord85]

Indeed it is, in the old mmo. There is no need to compare with other game. its not relevant, we were comfortable with the previous dps cycle
But i do agree this drama need to end, i myself rant all i want in a day in fc chat.
Then just sleep it off, let the disappointment seeps away to start anew tomorrow
Its not that bad, just embrace the changes and move on.
SCH is still my favourite class

I really don’t think it’s a good idea to embrace these changes. SCH and AST have some major issues that need to be addressed and they won’t be if we as a community just lay back and let Square do what they want. I agree the drama isn’t fun, but it’s necessary sadly.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

THAT how healers worked on old games, that why its make me laugh that scholar's DPS drama, I would kill for skill like broil or even bio on my old bishop
so don't tell me its immposible :P

Strange, I remember hitting Banish and Holy on my WHM in FF11. I remember flipping between White Arts for healing and Black Arts for control/magic burst as FF11 SCH. I remember the Damage-Dealer/Healer hybrid my friend made in City of Heroes. I remember my all-rounder support in SMT IMAGINE that healed, buffed, and also found time to press Maha-Dyne damage skills to add AoE DPS and crowd control (and there was NO pure healing build in that game. At most you had a pure-healer PET).

It's not "old games versus new," it's down to the individual design of each. FF14 does not have a design that encourages a healing focus even HALF the time. Mostly because the healers are too good at healing and incoming damage isn't persistent enough. I can top the party up in FF14 as WHM or SCH at nearly no cost in resources or time, something I couldn't do in SWtOR as a Jedi Sage Seer where nearly all of my heals were single target, my AoE's were on long cooldowns, and any heal that wasn't my "OH S**T!" buttons didn't restore much per cast. I hardly DPS'd in that game (and I hear WoW is similar) because encounter design didn't LET me. I had to constantly heal, while being careful what I used for healing because choosing wrong meant I'd be out of Force Points 5 minutes down the line and the party would wipe. Also because I had other things to be doing when not healing instead (CC, threat management, a raid buff).

Meanwhile, FF14 strips out support, crowd control, and threat management tools expansion after expansion, boiling the roles ever further down to their base, leaving healers with less and less to do besides DPS because the bloated healing kits are overtuned for even the most difficult of content. With the cherry on top being that SE then makes that DPS utterly dull and unengaging. We're left bored between damage spikes, if there even ARE any once people begin to outgear content.

[Billythepancake]

I really don’t think it’s a good idea to embrace these changes. SCH and AST have some major issues that need to be addressed and they won’t be if we as a community just lay back and let Square do what they want. I agree the drama isn’t fun, but it’s necessary sadly.

Exactly that. There are problems we want addressed, and the only way to get SE to listen to us is by making noise. If we sat by quietly then they would just keep things the way they are. Theres also a misconception that we whine out of entitlement, or that we want SE to fail, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The drama and the criticisms stem from a love for the game and the classes we play, and we simply want them to be fun so we can continue to support SE in this game that we dump thousands of hours in.

[Billythepancake]

Strange, I remember hitting Banish and Holy on my WHM in FF11. I remember flipping between White Arts for healing and Black Arts for control/magic burst as FF11 SCH. I remember the Damage-Dealer/Healer hybrid my friend made in City of Heroes. I remember my all-rounder support in SMT IMAGINE that healed, buffed, and also found time to press Maha-Dyne damage skills to add AoE DPS and crowd control (and there was NO pure healing build in that game. At most you had a pure-healer PET).

It's not "old games versus new," it's down to the individual design of each. FF14 does not have a design that encourages a healing focus even HALF the time. Mostly because the healers are too good at healing and incoming damage isn't persistent enough. I can top the party up in FF14 as WHM or SCH at nearly no cost in resources or time, something I couldn't do in SWtOR as a Jedi Sage Seer where nearly all of my heals were single target, my AoE's were on long cooldowns, and any heal that wasn't my "OH S**T!" buttons didn't restore much per cast. I hardly DPS'd in that game (and I hear WoW is similar) because encounter design didn't LET me. I had to constantly heal, while being careful what I used for healing because choosing wrong meant I'd be out of Force Points 5 minutes down the line and the party would wipe. Also because I had other things to be doing when not healing instead (CC, threat management, a raid buff).

Meanwhile, FF14 strips out support, crowd control, and threat management tools expansion after expansion, boiling the roles ever further down to their base, leaving healers with less and less to do besides DPS because the bloated healing kits are overtuned for even the most difficult of content. With the cherry on top being that SE then makes that DPS utterly dull and unengaging. We're left bored between damage spikes, if there even ARE any once people begin to outgear content.

Yes, this idea of "others had it worse so you have nothing to complain about" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Just because other games had poor design does not excuse another game of having poor design. That's like if I played Sonic 06 and then I said "its not bad, because at least its not bubsy 3D"

[Takahiro]

cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

SCH in SB had already started the path towards being nerfed. Looked at videos of 2.0 or 3.0 SCH. This is what we want back. The dots, You were able to do about the DPS of a PLD (Worst dps of 3.0 of all tanks) and still continue healing just fine. Seeing as most of your DPS came from Dots, you could go back to healing directly after.

Please stop with the elitism and condescending tones. Im 29 years old. Iv been playing MMOs and games since I was 10. My first ever MMORPG was Tibia Online. Old School RPGs have their place, but this is FFXIV and, frankly, the old School RPG method of "Healers only Heal" is boring. It was exciting when I was a kid, but as I get older, I want something harder and that was what SCH was. It wasnt a brain dead "Just spam Cure and Holy trinity" type job, but one you actually had to consider if you wanted to be good at it. It was a "Easy to understand, hard to master" type job in 3.0. Ever since Stormblood, SE has been hellbent on making us WHM Lites and, I cant speak for everyone, thats not what us SCHs ever wanted.

[Takahiro]

Exactly that. There are problems we want addressed, and the only way to get SE to listen to us is by making noise. If we sat by quietly then they would just keep things the way they are. Theres also a misconception that we whine out of entitlement, or that we want SE to fail, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The drama and the criticisms stem from a love for the game and the classes we play, and we simply want them to be fun so we can continue to support SE in this game that we dump thousands of hours in.

A favorite qoute of mine is "Anger imples caring. Someone who does not care, would not get angry."