Summoner likes and dislikes, an attempt to compilate thoughts on Summoner.

[Roda]

[*]Egis: they dont make you feel like a proper smn the way the are now considering that drk and mch can call temp pets;
(Desired change: Make carbuncle the pet you keep summoned 100% of the time, and isntead, you call egis temporarily, having both out at the same time, the 3 sharing the recast timer and each having their niche. basically a pet that is always out and the egis/bahamuth/phoenix being the temp pets you call alongside it.)
(Desired change 2: if above is not possible, make it so enkindle also make them "demi" versions, for 20s or so upgrades them to their demi forms and finish with their signature move.).

I really like this suggestion as it's a good compromise between my own personal like of pet class casters and the "no warlock clone and want true summoner " camp. I'd love to see the return of ifrit's radiant shield for ruby, garuda's contagion for emerald, and being able to be a solo pve tank for topaz. 'Cause I really liked our utility being tied to our pets.

[Taranok]

I really like this suggestion as it's a good compromise between my own personal like of pet class casters and the "no warlock clone and want true summoner " camp. I'd love to see the return of ifrit's radiant shield for ruby, garuda's contagion for emerald, and being able to be a solo pve tank for topaz. 'Cause I really liked our utility being tied to our pets.

An idea I had bandied about a bit was to do this with egis:

1. Remove all Carbuncles and Egis as permanent pets.
2. When you would get your first Carbuncle, introduce the Trance system immediately and you summon it directly via trances, as per high-level summoner gameplay.
3. As you would have unlocked newer Carbuncles/Egis, replace them into the Trance rotation. First Emerald, then Topaz, then Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Bahamut, and Phoenix
4. Define the trance cycle by whatever length you want it to be, though I feel it would be best, eventually, as 4 separate summons on a 2m cycle
5. Change all Egi Assaults and Enkindles to instead do temporary summons. Egi Assaults basically call up a pet partially, such as Ifrit's clawing up through the ground and slashing at a target once before disappearing. Enkindle would instead summon 1+ of your replaced summons. It could be random, specific ones, it could be a single one, multiple. It's effectively going to be a DoT but flood the map with more summons, signifying your growth as a summoner to be able to create "Weak" summons effortlessly. But more importantly, it serves as a way for old summons to be seen again.
6. As with the current demi-primal system, the demi-summons in the summoner rotation should feel powerful once you become a summoner. They can either have growth as you level up via traits (E.G. Ifrit-Egi->Demi-Ifrit) or just start out in an empowered state, but trances should be larger summons that look more awesome, whereas "weaker" temporary summons can be exclusively the egis or carbuncles, after they've been outmoded.
7. And as the final coup de grace, add a bunch of "unused" buttons at various points. These normally do literally nothing, dead space like Enkindle Bahamut is. But when you have a trance running with a demi-summon, they change into unique abilities defined by the pet. They can be GCDs or oGCDs, but are used to customize a minigame of the job's rotation that is exclusive to that trance phase OR primal specifically, giving the class a multifaceted feel that alters depending on what summon is out.

The idea behind this is you basically retool the class around the demi-primal/trance system, but do it from an earlier level. And by making all of the pets temp summons, you can both re-use older pets as well as make the class feel more powerful as a summoner by mixing in a dash of minion master into the class.

Whether we keep a permanent summon or not is honestly whatever at that point, the entire DoT/Aetherflow mechanic can be completely reworked, and you can speed up the cycle. Plus, tying into other ideas I want to see with Summoner, you can make each trance play a little bit differently. One could be just spamming one button over and over, on a simple summon. You can make another rocking 2 abilities with some oGCDs splashed in to spice it up. You can make a third have a 1-2-3 combo, or a 1-1-2 combo, or 1-2-3-4, or it can be 1-1-2-1-1-3 or pretty much whatever you want. It can be as simple or as complicated as the devs want to make it with the tools summoner will have when these summons are not out, and it will fit the Summoner aesthetic nicely.

[Roda]

An idea I had bandied about a bit was to do this with egis:

1. Remove all Carbuncles and Egis as permanent pets.
2. When you would get your first Carbuncle, introduce the Trance system immediately and you summon it directly via trances, as per high-level summoner gameplay.
3. As you would have unlocked newer Carbuncles/Egis, replace them into the Trance rotation. First Emerald, then Topaz, then Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Bahamut, and Phoenix
4. Define the trance cycle by whatever length you want it to be, though I feel it would be best, eventually, as 4 separate summons on a 2m cycle
5. Change all Egi Assaults and Enkindles to instead do temporary summons. Egi Assaults basically call up a pet partially, such as Ifrit's clawing up through the ground and slashing at a target once before disappearing. Enkindle would instead summon 1+ of your replaced summons. It could be random, specific ones, it could be a single one, multiple. It's effectively going to be a DoT but flood the map with more summons, signifying your growth as a summoner to be able to create "Weak" summons effortlessly. But more importantly, it serves as a way for old summons to be seen again.
6. As with the current demi-primal system, the demi-summons in the summoner rotation should feel powerful once you become a summoner. They can either have growth as you level up via traits (E.G. Ifrit-Egi->Demi-Ifrit) or just start out in an empowered state, but trances should be larger summons that look more awesome, whereas "weaker" temporary summons can be exclusively the egis or carbuncles, after they've been outmoded.
7. And as the final coup de grace, add a bunch of "unused" buttons at various points. These normally do literally nothing, dead space like Enkindle Bahamut is. But when you have a trance running with a demi-summon, they change into unique abilities defined by the pet. They can be GCDs or oGCDs, but are used to customize a minigame of the job's rotation that is exclusive to that trance phase OR primal specifically, giving the class a multifaceted feel that alters depending on what summon is out.

The idea behind this is you basically retool the class around the demi-primal/trance system, but do it from an earlier level. And by making all of the pets temp summons, you can both re-use older pets as well as make the class feel more powerful as a summoner by mixing in a dash of minion master into the class.

Whether we keep a permanent summon or not is honestly whatever at that point, the entire DoT/Aetherflow mechanic can be completely reworked, and you can speed up the cycle. Plus, tying into other ideas I want to see with Summoner, you can make each trance play a little bit differently. One could be just spamming one button over and over, on a simple summon. You can make another rocking 2 abilities with some oGCDs splashed in to spice it up. You can make a third have a 1-2-3 combo, or a 1-1-2 combo, or 1-2-3-4, or it can be 1-1-2-1-1-3 or pretty much whatever you want. It can be as simple or as complicated as the devs want to make it with the tools summoner will have when these summons are not out, and it will fit the Summoner aesthetic nicely.

If we're going all out on a total redesign, I'm thinking of something similar, but I'm REALLY not a fan of throwing the permanent summons out completely. I like the fantasy and feel of presenting as a simple arcanist or dinky summoner initially, but building up power to super saiyan into trance/demi for a big satisfying flurry of damage and then having a slower cooldown portion of the rotation where we can build up that power again and dole out buffs/utility so we can boost ourselves again, and even harder into our next trance/demi. Stormblood summoner, for me, was perfection between the balance of mmo magic summoner, and classic FF summoner. Plus, replacing carbuncle with primals entirely would absolutely break arcanist stories and summoner stories. (you get summon II before you even see a primal)

I'd much prefer keeping the carbuncles as our main permanent summon (basically a glorified dot and potentially utility dispenser), having it be empowered into a true demi/trance, and having a quick spell effect of demi ifrit/titan/garuda/whatever else as maybe like an ogcd combo used to summon into our demi/trances (think SB aetherflow/aethertrail attunement, but without the aetherflow cooldown to watch, or like an ogcd sen building.)

Maybe we could build the resource to summon these quickdemis with ruin casts (hardcast and instant ruin pls), or dot uptime (or both, I like both) and once we get enough resource we can cast one or more of these ogcds.

Hell, to maybe increase our summoning library past "only one big model reuse per expansion" with stances that we can choose like AST sects that play upon party comp or encounter design. Like "Martialist's Aetherial Attunement: Changes "Primal attunement I, II, and III to Ifrit, Ravana, and Susano, primals that would be boosted by your party's martial experience (stacking: x potency increase per melee dps party member, max stacks 2)," "Marksman's Aetherial Attunement: Changes "Primal attunement I, II, and III to Leviathan, Shiva, and Tsukuyomi primals that would be boosted by your party's ranged experience (stacking: x potency increase per ranged physical dps party member, max stacks 2)," and "Magician's Aetherial Attunement: Changes "Primal attunement I, II, and III to Garuda, Ramuh, and Sophia primals that would be boosted by your party's magical experience (stacking: x potency increase per magical dps party member, max stacks 2)." Your carbuncle could even get those past skills I mentioned back (radiant shield, contagion, and I guess one other for physical ranged dps) based on which attunement you've got. Gives the fantasy of choosing your summons carefully without bloating your hotbars with a bunch of useless options and a few good ones.

If they want to drop even more money on summoner, these stances could change which demi/trance you enter (think about it tho, first off, smash dwt and demibahamut together like fbt, and give him his own custom spells (ruin III, II and outburst, replaced still one hard cast, still one instant and still one AoE)* for symmetry's sake. 'Cause right now he's lookin' pretty dinky next to the buttery smoothness of fbt. And either make him just as mobile, or super stronk to make up for the lack of mobility. (o and I'm operating under the fantasy that demis can CAST AND MOVE AT THE SAME TIME) Now even though I love me some mobility, I leave in the hard casting option because, tie Bahamut to the Magician's Aetherial Attunement and powering up to his demi/trance would turn you into a super caster for a short time, grounding yourself and blasting off some sick nukes with your buddy bo-hammo. Tie Phoenix to Marksman's Aetherial Attunement, and powering up to his demi/trance would turn you into a super ranged/physical, bouncin' around and throwing some pretty rockin' nukes. Now he's the weird one. Tie, say, Odin to the Martialist's Aetherial Attunement and your two combo skills become brutal melee attacks (probably could cause some issues in raid content with 2 melee and 1 semi-melee but that's what testing is for! and with my resource system you might be able to hold it for a bit until mechanics allow you to go all out). And. Two Shin-Zantetsukens. Hell yeah. (bonus points if you don't summon the trial model of odin, but your demi summon turns you into a "you were the last hit" version of the FATE odin. Remember, the primal is the sword!) And having one demi/trance to our rotation per stance would shorten our rotation by a lot and probably make it easier to line up buffs for it, and recover from mistakes.


And also get that ruin IV management out of here. I should want to command my summons because I am a summoner and that's what I do, not because I need to weave so that I can weave so that I can weave so that I can weave so that I can move because mechanics are unavoidable and oh god now all my set up is ruined and so that i can weave so I can weave.

Keep the two dots, but maybe flavor them up to be more FFXIV summoner and less past FF black mage. Something like "Aetheric corruption" and "Deific curse." Something to suggest you're literally playing with the wrath of gods, and not just giving someone the snifflies.
Remove tridisaster's refresh from DWT (as we know it now) and put it on the demi/trance.
And keep the instant-cast functionality of the new/current DWT, but just make it a mobility/quickweaving utility cooldown without deathflare, or the actual demi-summons attached to it, so it can actually be of use to us as a mobility tool instead of a "ME WANT DEATHFLARE/TRIDISASTER RESET/TO GET IT OUT OF THE WAY SO I CAN BAHAMUT/PHEONIX" button. Change the name based on the stance, or name it something neutral like "aetherslip" or something.

As for the visuals, I don't think they should be super duper flashy (outside of demi/trances). Make them look cool when you're soloing, but muted enough so that they won't completely overtake boss telegraphs and animations. No horde of summons on boss pls.

Also retool aetherflow into the demi/trance tokens, and get rid of energydrain/siphon.

*Also make it so outburst procs ruin II to turn into painflare (now an instant spell) so you can weave into your aoe quicksummon abilities without FREAKING CLIPPING, SE HOW DID YOU NOT NOTICE THIS DESIGN PLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

(Also also also, since we not only can summon a bahamut egi now, and have a whole other demi primal summoned, I think it's time for a change in LB3 animation. Maybe have us summoning a bunch of primals at once. Or summoning Alexander!!!!)

[Dyvid]

Likes:

• Egi Redesigns. A true chose between Garuda and Ifrit, instant cast for easy swapping.

• Egi Assault are responsive and don't seem to lag like the old system.

• [*-DoTs affecting more than just Fester giving a reason to keep them up.

• Ruin IV proc is not as random

• Ruination is 30s duration

Dislikes:

• Egi DPS is bad

• Dreadwyrm Trance is basically a Tri-Disaster refresh tool now

• Demi-Bahamut has nothing special about it

• Deathflare and Ahk Morn are the same spell

• The timers on everything just don't line up to make a smooth gameplay experience

• Energy Drain recast are too short and doesn't have a charge

• Aetherflow only has two stacks

• No new Egi Glamours

[ksuyen]

Summoner is fine. I guess this is not going to be a popular opinion, but I (re-)learn to play.

Likes:
Everything

Dislikes:
None

[Taranok]

This is a discussion about what we like and dislike about the class Ksuyen, not telling people to "learn to play," because everything is fine, as even the best class in the game, Black Mage, has room to improve.

So if you'd like to actually participate in the discussion, we'll be waiting.

[battleshadow66]

We are a SMN class, yet we get told we can't have more then the 3 Egis, yet here we go and get two Demi Primals....

Why can't we have Ramah, Lev, Shiva again, atleast?

[ksuyen]

Yes, and I stated what I like and dislike. Also, I wasn't telling "people to learn to play", I was telling "I" learn to play - which is my only input in the discussion. I have nothing else to add.

[Dyvid]

We are a SMN class, yet we get told we can't have more then the 3 Egis, yet here we go and get two Demi Primals....

Why can't we have Ramah, Lev, Shiva again, atleast?

Prior to the release of Heavensward, Yoshi-P stated that they didn't know how to add more Egi into the game consider they couldn't figure out how to balance Garuda and Ifrit. We were told they are making Egi Glamour but all that encompassed was carbuncles. To this day we are still waiting for more glamours.

[battleshadow66]

Prior to the release of Heavensward, Yoshi-P stated that they didn't know how to add more Egi into the game consider they couldn't figure out how to balance Garuda and Ifrit. We were told they are making Egi Glamour but all that encompassed was carbuncles. To this day we are still waiting for more glamours.

Oh, I'm well aware of all that. It's just the logic at this point.