What is the Caster Role for 5.0 Going Forward and Where is balance?

[Zyneste]

With the introduction of Stormsblood, we layed a foundation for actual Role responsibilities and strengths. To me, these responsibilities and strengths in 4.0 were:

Tanks- Tanks have a very controlling role set, focused on interrupts, damage reduction and enmity management.

Healers- healer role skills are transitional from the old class system and were already considered part of their toolkit. They provide the main mp restore of the class, access to instant cast and a party wide defense buff.


Melee- Close combat physical DPS have a sturdier role set with a focus on helping their fellow melee/physical party members.


Ranged Physical- BRD and MCH have very supportive role actions. Access to enfeeblements, party wide resource regain and a physical defensive buff for the tank. As a whole most of their skills work their intended purpose. Their role is supporting everyone with resources and tanks with defensive utility.

Ranged Magical- Casters are supportive towards their healers, helping to mitigate magical damage and provide MP to their healers or bard. They are glass cannons and have heavy access to enmity management.

Breaking down how I feel the roles have changed focusing on their role skills and common utility:

Tanks, I feel stayed true to their role completely from STB to SHB. Arm's length has added a duality in its use, antiknockback for raid situations to complement gap closers, and a 20% slow for trash.

Healers traded protect for players having higher natural HP. More role skills moved from WHM to share via repose.

Ranged Physical moved towards more controlled AOE mitigation. They lost their ability to help with recovering TP after death (which is now irrelevant) and powerful MP sustain. MP is taking a hit this expansion from the loss of this skill alone. They still have their enfeeblements for possible raid contributions (y tho) and a working interrupt. Best of all they have an antiknocback this time around too. Its also nice for accidental aggro pulls in trash.

Melee have pretty much stayed the same. The removal of TP and Emnity cleaned their role skills down to 7. Crutch was removed, ( a neat idea, but not frequent enough or rewarding to use) focusing melee more on its own survival with feint for physical mitigation.

Casters are where it changed the most for me. We went from supporting the healer with manashift/Erase/Apocastasis to melee level focus on itself, while providing no self healing/mitigation tools. Down to 4 role skills, compared to tanks and other roles at 7 and 6 each respectively. We bring addle, just as melee brings feint. Black mage can't even use Lucid, so it essentially has 3 role skills.

Is Progression vs Farm a viable class balance?

Casters can also be broken down into two groups:

Those who are True Damage Dealers:
Black Mage

Those who can Raise:
Red Mage
Summoner

With the two distinctions we have this maximum upper tier Damage Dealer with two smaller safety net classes. This safety net balance does not exist in any other role. Balancing Each other role is "Personal DPS + DPS Raid Utility vs Personal DPS + DPS Raid Utility" and "Defensive Support/Self Mitigation vs Defensive Support/Self Mitigation" with each role having an answer for these balances. ["Shield Samba vs Tactician vs Troubadour" as an example.]

How can the caster role exist and be balanced when it can be divided into Progression tier Caster, Flexible Caster and Farm Caster? This again, isn't an issue with any other role.

With the MP changes, SMN and Red Mage are in a much less powerful position in terms of raiding. Refresh isn't there to help with deaths. SMN and RDM (especially for its easy dualcast access) are both punished for the capability to raise even when its not in use, just because its there. [This time around SMN/RDM are much closer than they were in StB relative to BLM, with SMN probably needing a slight DPS buff to compete with a 2 melee, 1 ranged Embolden. This is fine, so long as Personal DPS vs RDPS is balanced out, between the two classes.] Over Buffing SMN/RDM though would put BLM in a "Why should I try hard to be the best possible DPS, when I can do just a little less and have much more control over deaths." Its a bad situation.

Support and Consequences:

Raise in general just does not feel good. It is powerful and it gives us something to be useful, but by doing it, we are again, doing what no other DPS class does, lowering our DPS in support of the party, when our DPS is the focus of our class. We have little mitigation/support, especially compared to STB caster, but have a direct punishment for death amongst our party.

Leveling Dancer with Shield Samba and Curing Waltz really helped me to appreciate its class design, if only in flavor. A Dancer's job is to deal a lower portion of damage than the other ranged physical classes, making up most of their DPS via their RDPS contributions. Curing Waltz's main use in my eyes, isn't about Raid wide healing so much as it is about making sure your DPS partner stays alive and healthy. Esprit and their RDPS create a direct incentive to look out for your partner's well being, stacking on them specifically as probably the most mobile class in game, to trigger a decentish heal for yourself and your partner.

Just wanna hear general thoughts and opinions on where people feel RDM/SMN/BLM would be balanced/if they are balanced or what changes would need to be made to balance them. I didn't mention any specific changes (I don't think.) Also, do you feel casters have any truly defining role qualities anymore? I feel like in general, we are moving to a more selfish playstyle amongst all roles, and it just happened to hit casters especially hard. We can't be both the iconic highest DPS role in the game, while also being the safety net [In my opinion at least.]

[Taranok]

One thing casters do bring is Res Utility, and this is a role that I feel is defined by casters but that Black Mage breaks because "lore," or some other similarly weak excuse. Res utility is pretty valuable unless your team is always perfect enough to never die, and if they gave BLM a res (make it a thunder spell on a 1m cooldown, instant cast, cost no mana or all mana, and name it defibrillator, and that should be balanced enough) and Casters would have their role clearly defined as "We clean up your mistakes." Which is what they kind of are, but not black mage.

This is kind of the weird thing with the roles. Melee DPS all have a defined role that shares between them outside of support, ranged DPS all have a defined role shared between them outside of support. Tanks, healers, same thing. Black mage is kind of the odd man out because it doesn't provide the unique thing other casters do.

There's also the weirdness of a couple supports innately hurting you for certain compositions, E.G. Red Mage hurts having more than 1 caster DPS, Monk flat out doesn't help caster DPS, and these inconsistencies are strange to have when the devs wanted to help break metas, not reinforce them.

If they were to redefine casters, I'd say it should be around res utility, just give BLM a very weak res for large mistakes, and possibly re-add refresh or mana shift and let casters support healers again directly.

[SaberMaxwell]

I'm of opposite mind to Tanarok. No DPS should ever be focused around an ability to heal, and in essence that is what raise is: a 25% HP heal that can only target incapacitated party members. Instead, casters should be focused on having overwhelming power: to quote Zyneste, glass cannons. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I play spellcasters, my goal is to be a destructive force of nature and not a back-up healer. IMO, SMN raise and RDM raise should be shackled or outright removed from the game, and both their damage potentials raised to compensate.

[Alym]

I'm of opposite mind to Tanarok. No DPS should ever be focused around an ability to heal, and in essence that is what raise is: a 25% HP heal that can only target incapacitated party members. Instead, casters should be focused on having overwhelming power: to quote Zyneste, glass cannons. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I play spellcasters, my goal is to be a destructive force of nature and not a back-up healer. IMO, SMN raise and RDM raise should be shackled or outright removed from the game, and both their damage potentials raised to compensate.

I'm 100% with this sentiment. Imagine if MNKs and NINs had nerfed dps because they had a melee version of rescue. After progression, it would almost never be used, but the dps tax would always be paid for that ability, even when farming. SAMs and DRGs would be the only desirable melees when progression is over. Melees would rightfully throw a fit.

Raise and casters is just as terrible feeling and kind of ridiculous to me. Why do casters have a progression caster and a farm caster? Why do no other roles have this separation (now that AST got wrecked)? Raise and its dps tax is why. Removing the dps tax would make BLMs obsolete. Giving infinite MP BLMs raise would blow SMN and RDM out of the water entirely. Removing raise as a caster ability, though, would only serve to elevate SMN and RDM.

Simple choice, really.

[Seraphor]

Res utility isn't a caster thing though.

Res was a SMN thing because it was an Arcanist thing, because of SCH.
RDM has a res, because it's a Red Mage.
BLM came before both of them.

If we get a fourth caster, it shouldn't, and there's no reason why it should, have a res.

But I'm fine with it being this way.

Physical Ranged DPS have a gradient of utility, from MCH having least, to DNC having most.
A similar paradigm for casters works well too, BLM least, RDM most.

[Shurrikhan]

I'd rather play a job than a role. I see no reason why Caster need all be glass cannons or all support-DPS. I prefer the variety we have, and would even like to see that variety expanded upon.

As it stands, Role Actions still muddle that diversity, making it sort of trip over itself when on one extreme or the other, but the value of Role Actions, if their capacities were just accounted for, is almost nill.
Just remove their bloat and give higher base MP regeneration, more ways to counterattack interrupts, more immediate and reliable ways to deal with brief but sustained forced movement (still varying Caster to Caster), and their own utilities into the class kits themselves.

Voila, no more role identity confusion. You're quite simply a BLM, a RDM, or a SMN. Where party utility exists for these it is noticeable, cohesive, and strong, but comes at cost of dps as not to make it obligatory to balance downward from.

[Dyvid]

First and foremost a Caster's role is to DPS, always. I don't think you can try and lump what they do other than what role actions they have. SE has taken a tiered approach to each job in that role starting with pure dps then flowing down with the more utilities it adds. Basically caster have Addle that would define that role. Physical Ranged DPS has a defensive buff and debuffs; Stun, heavy, interrupt. Melee have stun and lower damage debuff.

Many think BLM should get a raise to finish fleshing out caster as a utility of that role but it does take away from RDMs claim to fame.

Lastly SE defines "Magical ranged DPS attack foes using a variety of arcane arts. Movement is restricted by casting times, but they excel at inflicting high burst damage."

I'd rather play a job than a role. I see no reason why Caster need all be glass cannons or all support-DPS. I prefer the variety we have, and would even like to see that variety expanded upon.

As it stands, Role Actions still muddle that diversity, making it sort of trip over itself when on one extreme or the other, but the value of Role Actions, if their capacities were just accounted for, is almost nill.
Just remove their bloat and give higher base MP regeneration, more ways to counterattack interrupts, more immediate and reliable ways to deal with brief but sustained forced movement (still varying Caster to Caster), and their own utilities into the class kits themselves.

Voila, no more role identity confusion. You're quite simply a BLM, a RDM, or a SMN. Where party utility exists for these it is noticeable, cohesive, and strong, but comes at cost of dps as not to make it obligatory to balance downward from.

This about sums up how I feel.

[Taranok]

I'm of opposite mind to Tanarok. No DPS should ever be focused around an ability to heal, and in essence that is what raise is: a 25% HP heal that can only target incapacitated party members. Instead, casters should be focused on having overwhelming power: to quote Zyneste, glass cannons. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I play spellcasters, my goal is to be a destructive force of nature and not a back-up healer. IMO, SMN raise and RDM raise should be shackled or outright removed from the game, and both their damage potentials raised to compensate.

Okay, but right now BLM doesn't have it and that's a serious consideration to have when you flat out don't have res utility on the caster DPS slot, since not having it puts a ton of pressure on the healers during prog or, on the flip side, removes a ton of pressure from healers if you happen to have a double caster group with smn/rdm.

The current situation is bad though and BLM suffers more for lack of it than it would suffer because of having it.

Also, there is not and can never be such a thing as "glass cannon" in FFXIV because of the way encounters and healing is designed. Fundamentally, every DPS is a glass cannon in the game because of this, even if some of them do more damage than others. Every DPS dies to the same things usually, they can survive the same things, the only difference is whether you have Manaward or nothing at all.

Res utility isn't a caster thing though.

Res was a SMN thing because it was an Arcanist thing, because of SCH.
RDM has a res, because it's a Red Mage.
BLM came before both of them.

If we get a fourth caster, it shouldn't, and there's no reason why it should, have a res.

But I'm fine with it being this way.

Physical Ranged DPS have a gradient of utility, from MCH having least, to DNC having most.
A similar paradigm for casters works well too, BLM least, RDM most.

No, it's a caster thing. 2 of the 3 casters have it, and Arcanist got in combat resurrections before you could even be a Scholar. The inclusion of Red Mage more or less sealed res utility being a thing on casters since they added it at a time when they were starting to remove abilities they didn't want SMN to have that was there because of scholar. So because of that, it ended up being caster utility.

Sure, you can remove it, or you can keep it, but as long as the majority of casters have it, any caster not having it is a serious balance problem and motivation against taking that class.

And the type of utility I'm talking about on ranged is Shield Samba. It's a baseline thing that all of them take that's very powerful. 2 of 3 casters have something in the same vein, the third does not.

[SaberMaxwell]

Okay, but right now BLM doesn't have it and that's a serious consideration to have when you flat out don't have res utility on the caster DPS slot, since not having it puts a ton of pressure on the healers during prog or, on the flip side, removes a ton of pressure from healers if you happen to have a double caster group with smn/rdm.

First let me say that removing raise from casters likewise removes this consideration. My entire point is that the caster role shouldn't be defined by healer abilities and support like raising. That's the healer's job in my opinion, plain and simple.

The current situation is bad though and BLM suffers more for lack of it than it would suffer because of having it.

The state of Red Mage's MP actually has my Red Mage not doing any of the raising whatsoever in EX level content right now. Both healers handle any and all raises unless both Swiftcasts are down, it's one of the healers that died, or it's both of the healers that died. The Red Mage handling any more than that runs them OoM and at the point they're OoM, they're worse than dead.

My Red Mage has actually started leveling Black Mage because, "I do less damage because I have a utility that I can't use in most practical situations. I'm a weaker Black Mage, so I might as well level Black Mage."

So as far as Black Mage suffering because it's "the caster without a raise," at the current moment (I don't know about Summoner), Red Mages are watered down Black Mages because they have the raise. Which again goes back to just getting rid of raise on casters entirely; it's not a DPS's job to have to worry about that.

Also, there is not and can never be such a thing as "glass cannon" in FFXIV because of the way encounters and healing is designed. Fundamentally, every DPS is a glass cannon in the game because of this, even if some of them do more damage than others. Every DPS dies to the same things usually, they can survive the same things, the only difference is whether you have Manaward or nothing at all.

You have a point... until you start telling me some of those glass cannons should do less damage because they can also repair other glass cannons in a pinch. It's not a cannon's job to fix a cannon.

[Kurando]

Which again goes back to just getting rid of raise on casters entirely; it's not a DPS's job to have to worry about that.
.

To be fair we could say this about any job in the game. PLD shouldn't be using Clemency as it's the healer's job to worry about that, or RDM/DNC/BRD shouldn't be providing heal/esuna support as again it's the healers job. A number of role actions cause several jobs to have access to the same thing, again causing toe stepping on who should or shouldn't be doing things. Granted these are not the same as Raise, but we can't be isolating certain hybrid jobs just because some other jobs can't do the same thing, they all have specific strengths to make up for shortcomings. FFXI was pretty heavy in jobs doing multiple things, should be nothing new for XIV.