Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

[Zyneste]

Just a sort of shower thought.

So if Ascians are tempered, but coherent, "Blessed with Darkness" are we also tempered, but conscious of our actions? Wouldn't our blessing be what tempers us, and prevents temperament from other primals ("SHE HAS TOUCHED YOU."-Garuda)

Finally, if all of those are a yes, shouldn't that mean that Middy knew how to absorb the aetheric influence of the temperament, negating the blessing, making it possible to reverse tempering after all? Or do we just hand waive it and say that he has a connection with Hydalyn and only weakened it.

Middy holding out on a bunch of poor souls if so.

[Kallera]

One of the reasons I'm also on #neitherprimal

Primals are flawed like their creators. and with some people's messing around with echo can be controlled to use primal for their own methods, so I'm concerned when you have one of the oldest primals about still trying to help out humanity and being weakened in the process by Calamities (returning it to lower power levels prior to the split) making it ripe for the eventual taking if circumstances present itself with people like Zenos.

That currently primals can be possesed and even strengthed in their capture does make it convincing that leaving any of them in the mothercrystal is a poor choice. We can only guess Zodiark is on the moon, but aren’t there already attempts made by people to contact Hydaelyn? I wouldn’t put it beyond Zenos to try hacking the planet.

[Cont13]

Diving into the Hydaelyn matter

Regardless of whether you feel that her purpose and actions are good or evil or even neither, or whether she's been disingenuous or not, the overriding concern regarding her existence (and Zodiark's) still seems to be the issue that surrounds the presence of all primals in the material realm: the aether needed to sustain them. While I don't recall that we've gleaned any specific information over the amount needed to maintain a being on that scale, short of mass sacrifice, there are clues that suggest the cost either can be or is being paid in other ways.

The "aetheric thinning" on the Source is suggested by Urianger and the Exarch to correlate with the incoming flow of Light from the First, a shard where Hydaelyn's influence (whether she willed it or no) came to reign supreme. If we take the First's understanding of how Light and Darkness work as fact, this is in line with Light's—and consequently, Hydaelyn's—nature as a force of stasis. Even without intervening directly, her mere presence requires balance in the same way that Zodiark's does, as the elements, much like all of nature, work to achieve a state of equilibrium with each other barring outside influence.

Even if Hydaelyn's existence doesn't require the same proportional sacrifice that Zodiark's does to sustain, her cost may have already been "paid" through the Sundering. She and her Light are said to "enervate" by Elidibus and Emet-Selch, to divide the whole of Creation and, most importantly to the Ascians, make existence finite. Rather than an "recurring payment" to maintain a being at full power, like what's happening with Zodiark, it feels possible that a "full payment" was made in the summoning of Hydaelyn, since the original intent behind her summoning was merely to counter Zodiark, not continue what he was doing or expand upon it. She only had to be more powerful than him once to achieve her intended goal. It would help explain why she becomes progressively weaker and unable to act as decisively on her own behalf as he and his Ascians have, and why the Source's aether hasn't completely bent under the strain of supporting her, ostensibly "un-Sundered" as she is, while Zodiark's return portends a fundamental realignment of the order of things as we know it. If the circumstances surrounding their creation were really equal, wouldn't they too equalize each other at full strength?

I admit I'm not as well versed in the comprehensive understanding and speculation behind this issue, something I need an in-game refresher and a look through previous discussions about, but seeing it come to the fore in both, just a few thoughts that occurred in the wake of the main story.

[QT_Melon]

Diving into the Hydaelyn matter

Regardless of whether you feel that her purpose and actions are good or evil or even neither, or whether she's been disingenuous or not, the overriding concern regarding her existence (and Zodiark's) still seems to be the issue that surrounds the presence of all primals in the material realm: the aether needed to sustain them. While I don't recall that we've gleaned any specific information over the amount needed to maintain a being on that scale, short of mass sacrifice, there are clues that suggest the cost either can be or is being paid in other ways.

The "aetheric thinning" on the Source is suggested by Urianger and the Exarch to correlate with the incoming flow of Light from the First, a shard where Hydaelyn's influence (whether she willed it or no) came to reign supreme. If we take the First's understanding of how Light and Darkness work as fact, this is in line with Light's—and consequently, Hydaelyn's—nature as a force of stasis. Even without intervening directly, her mere presence requires balance in the same way that Zodiark's does, as the elements, much like all of nature, work to achieve a state of equilibrium with each other barring outside influence.

Even if Hydaelyn's existence doesn't require the same proportional sacrifice that Zodiark's does to sustain, her cost may have already been "paid" through the Sundering. She and her Light are said to "enervate" by Elidibus and Emet-Selch, to divide the whole of Creation and, most importantly to the Ascians, make existence finite. Rather than an "recurring payment" to maintain a being at full power, like what's happening with Zodiark, it feels possible that a "full payment" was made in the summoning of Hydaelyn, since the original intent behind her summoning was merely to counter Zodiark, not continue what he was doing or expand upon it. She only had to be more powerful than him once to achieve her intended goal. It would help explain why she becomes progressively weaker and unable to act as decisively on her own behalf as he and his Ascians have, and why the Source's aether hasn't completely bent under the strain of supporting her, ostensibly "un-Sundered" as she is, while Zodiark's return portends a fundamental realignment of the order of things as we know it. If the circumstances surrounding their creation were really equal, wouldn't they too equalize each other at full strength?

I admit I'm not as well versed in the comprehensive understanding and speculation behind this issue, something I need an in-game refresher and a look through previous discussions about, but seeing it come to the fore in both, just a few thoughts that occurred in the wake of the main story.

Well actually reflecting upon your statement - I was watching videos reviewing the elemental chart... and lore

It actually WOULD cover why her statements seem disingenuous. If it's framed in the context of her actual directive. Keep Zodiark at bay. It also goes back to why the Ascians were also more willing to talk about Balance ( ...and also WHY Elidibus is one of the white robed Ascians. It's entirely possible he was part of the group that actually supported the summoning of Hydaelyn. (look at the cave paintings - you had dark robed and white robed). Of course the problem with this is he should be already tempered by Zodiark? The only things I could guess is that he is tempered and I am not sure if that would prevent one from (not summoning himself since it would mean sacrifice) supporting another summon. That of course would be a future plot revealed to us, since it was always odd he was one of the ones NOT wearing a dark robe.

Regardless of Emet's actions or not, it was pretty apparent that the imbalance of light and dark on each of the shards would tip the favor of her WoL that she sent out to defeat the darkness. Her goal was the same to each of them.

[CaesarCV]

Hydelyn is EEEVVVILLL!!! According to some people who won't look at basic thematic readings.

I'm really not under the impression that Hydelyn is evil. I mean, the story could definitely go in that direction, but right now the evidence is shaky at best and doesn't really make any sense thematically. Like, basically on any of the points. I'm splitting up the points below into ideas based on what I've seen, although I'll be using somewhat comical titles.

THEMES YA DORKS!!!
Okay, the is one is pretty simple. If you look at the thematic ideas mainly present in Shadowbringers (so far the most thematically cohesive expansion) then it's pretty clear that Hydelyn isn't the 'bad guy', she's the 'good guy'. The main themes in Shadowbringers are Legacy, Impermanence, and the need for the old to die and new life to be protected and secured. This is a repeated theme throughout the expansion (I'm planning on doing a BIG write up when I get time). The heroes remember the past to push forward its legacy, but agree to protect new life rather than hamfistedly protect the old. Thancred must let the old (Minfilia) die to let the new (Ryne) grow in its place. Y'Shtola willingly sacrifices her life to try and protect the seeds of the culture she's grown. Urianger confronts the ruins of Voeburt, but holds nothing against the new Fey civilization that lives there. By contrast, the villains attempt to sacrifice or kill new life to unnaturally make the present eternal or bring back the past. Vauthry sacrifices the lives of his subjects to make an eternal empire. Emet-Selch is trying to kill the new (The source/Shards) to resurrect Old Amaouritine. Ran'Jit wants to sacrifice Ryne's autonomy to preserve the idea of her as a perfect daughter. So the protagonists (who the writers expect us to agree with) want to let new life live and move on while the Antagonists attempt to pervert the cycle of life.

Which side of that is Zodark, the guy who wants to eat an entire planet's life to ressurrect souls, on?

Which side of that is Hydelyn, who doesn't want that to happen, on?

BUT ALL GODS MUST DIE!!!
I think that this is a bit of the common 'internet atheism' linking in to be honest. People want this to become a 'kill all the gods' storyline since those are popular. I don't think that the game leans in that particular direction since there are many good religious characters, and characters attempting to destroy religion and faith (most notably the Garlean Empire) are consistently presented as evil for it. Our heroes constantly gain aid from supernatural beings (Hydelyn, Hraesvelgr, Midgardsomr, the Four Lords) and aren't presented as weak for it. The only character who screams about freeing humanity from the supernatural is Varis, who is VERY CLEARLY A VILLAIN. There are plenty of games and stories with this idea as a major theme, but FFXIV ain't one of them.

That being said, with the theme of Legacy being so prevalent in this expansion, of putting your wishes forward and entrusting the next generation with them, I could totally see Hydelyn dying at some point in the future. Maybe she has to die so that we can beat Zodiark, or maybe something else happens. However, it'll likely be played for tragedy and drama rather than celebrated.

BUT TYRANT!!!
There's this very strange idea of Hydelyn as an evil tyrant out in the #TeamZodiark crowd. I uh, never understood this? Like at all. What has she ever done other than oppose Ascian interference? It's not like she rules the World as a God-Queen, most people aren't even aware of her existence. She rallies Warriors of Light, but only really defensively and reactively. There is the somewhat juicy idea that she has tempered our main characters, but there's not anything to imply that we don't have control of our actions. People like the idea of Hydelyn as some evil light tyrant since it's a popular concept in various media, but there's just nothing for it in this game.

BUT LIGHT AND THE FIRST!!!
First off, Hydelyn doesn't appear to be in any way responsible for the imbalance/flood on the First. There's no evidence of it, and the fact that people imply it just because she's the 'Light' entity is a little annoying. If she was they would have implied it somewhere. Hydelyn did the EXACT OPPOSITE and saved the first, even sacrificing her Oracle to do so.

BUT LIES!!!
That was written four years ago. I wouldn't be shocked if they hadn't even decided what the Asians actually were back then. It's not really good evidence of anything, especially when Emet-Selch admitted that she has her own side of the story. Next time we talk to Hydelyn we'll probably hear something more accurate and they'll make a lampshade as to her 'lies' earlier.

BUT MUH SIN MEGAMI TENSEI!!!
This is a bizarre repeated thing I've seen on this forum. Using SMT as some sort of evidence. Now, I will start by saying I love the Shin Megami Tensei series. That being said, it's built on very different thematic grounds than FFXIV. Order Versus Chaos is the direct underpinning of SMT, but it's not for FFXIV. Our characters have been on both sides depending on the scenario, but our heroic sides are consistently heroic and the villainous sides are consistently villainous. There's no reason to expect that FFXIV will go in the 'Neutral is always best' direction when There aren't strict Order and Chaos sides.

[Cont13]

Well actually reflecting upon your statement - I was watching videos reviewing the elemental chart... and lore

It actually WOULD cover why her statements seem disingenuous. If it's framed in the context of her actual directive. Keep Zodiark at bay. It also goes back to why the Ascians were also more willing to talk about Balance ( ...and also WHY Elidibus is one of the white robed Ascians. It's entirely possible he was part of the group that actually supported the summoning of Hydaelyn. (look at the cave paintings - you had dark robed and white robed). Of course the problem with this is he should be already tempered by Zodiark? The only things I could guess is that he is tempered and I am not sure if that would prevent one from (not summoning himself since it would mean sacrifice) supporting another summon. That of course would be a future plot revealed to us, since it was always odd he was one of the ones NOT wearing a dark robe.

Regardless of Emet's actions or not, it was pretty apparent that the imbalance of light and dark on each of the shards would tip the favor of her WoL that she sent out to defeat the darkness. Her goal was the same to each of them.

I hadn't considered that detail of the murals until now, thank you for bringing that up.

It does cast Elidibus in an interesting light... I couldn't resist. As well as the title of Emissary, like Lauront mentioned. While I'm hesitant to speculate on that since Emet is on such familiar terms with him, it makes me wonder if perhaps there was some kind of initial dialogue between the pro-Zodiark and -Hydaelyn camps prior to the outbreak of conflict.

It's hard to say whether he or anyone else of that time was or wasn't tempered. It seems that the nature of Hydaelyn is directly antithetical to everything Zodiark and the people who wished him to be stood for, so the interpretation that being tempered by one doesn't disallow the support of summoning the other is the only other logical conclusion we have to run with right now.

As for her efforts in supporting her Warriors of Light across the shards, that's a good point that she's continuing to carry out her initial purpose in weakening Zodiark. The results, however, are mixed at best. One shard lost to Darkness, a complete failure; one nearly lost to Light, having been *too* successful; six more undone by neither Light nor Dark but through Ascian machination, meaning she was outmaneuvered. And then there's the Source itself, which Elidibus himself fears is falling into imbalance due to our overpowering Light. (As an aside to that, during the story I was under the impression for a time that Emet had shifted his strategy to sending us back to the Source *with* the Lightwardens' Light, and whatever effect that may have had. But I digress.) While Hydaelyn can direct her chosen to go out and fulfill her duty, that doesn't imply they'll always succeed, or at least not directly, such as the Warriors of the First, or even Ysayle on the Source. The latter example suggests it's possible to defy or misinterpret her will.

Which brings me to another thought that occurred after running through Amaurot again. During the story and dungeon sequences there, Emet and especially the pseudo-Ascians speak not primarily of Light or Dark, but "creation". Creation as a school of thought and practice of magic.The understanding of those poles and the elements seems to have come later, after the Sundering, with various interpretations among the Shards. While we now understand Darkness to be associated with activity, and consequently creation, now I wonder if the concepts of Light and Darkness were even *conceived* before Zodiark and Hydaelyn were summoned. If not, Hydaelyn, possibly even Zodiark, could have been brought into being with incomplete knowledge of their own nature.

[QT_Melon]

Those themes are still there with or without Hydaelyn btw.

Balance is also a theme.

Nor have I stated that she's EVIL though I was questioning her endgame (ie harvesting as a theory)?. Quite the opposite, she's not evil in the strictest sense. She just may not be good for us in the long run unchecked. I also said retconning was a possibility, but it seems like a massive oversight to overlook it and then have people wanting to question it. I mean it's not like to some degrees errors have gone out before. But since new game plus is going to be a thing, people are obviously going to look back at past evidence to see where the story leads. So regardless if you want to keep touting that reason...it's still a valid reason to question what's going on since it is a sore thumb in all of this.

In interviews about halfway through 5.0 we're going to go through some big turmoil.

we HAVE to fight Ascians that want to restore the status quo if it means our existence has to be eliminated for their goal.

But why even reveal the nature of Dark and Light if it wasn't going to have an even bigger payoff?

I hadn't considered that detail of the murals until now, thank you for bringing that up.

It does cast Elidibus in an interesting light... I couldn't resist. As well as the title of Emissary, like Lauront mentioned. While I'm hesitant to speculate on that since Emet is on such familiar terms with him, it makes me wonder if perhaps there was some kind of initial dialogue between the pro-Zodiark and -Hydaelyn camps prior to the outbreak of conflict.

The understanding of those poles and the elements seems to have come later, after the Sundering, with various interpretations among the Shards. While we now understand Darkness to be associated with activity, and consequently creation, now I wonder if the concepts of Light and Darkness were even *conceived* before Zodiark and Hydaelyn were summoned. If not, Hydaelyn, possibly even Zodiark, could have been brought into being with incomplete knowledge of their own nature.

Entirely possible to your latter point. Hydaelyn does not speak negatively but in a mindset of "purity" and stasis.

Certain statements would make sense like Elidibus saying things like you'd never believe him if he told you anyways. It also goes in hand with Emet outright saying that "his group" doesn't think the same way either. It isn't a hivemind collective in the strictest sense. Emet seeming to have different alignment/goals/reasons than Elidibus and Lahabrea so all of them working for the same goal under different reasons and mindsets.

Our ancient self may have been looking for a solution to all this mess.

I think due to their longevity the Ancients feel they have the solution and that's in direct conflict with life as we know it, but that conclusion (might be a better term) is not the solution.

[EdwinLi]

------

While it is annoying if we go kill all Gods story path...

I am speaking more towards the nature and consequences of their maintained existence and what lead to WoL's original soul being turned into WoL and his or her 13 shards.


Story wise there is a big question regarding WoL's Origins now and what really happened between Zodiark and Hydealyn as the Ascian's perspective is still a bias view of the actual events.

There is also a question if there IS a Origin Will of the World who is a actual God/Goddess and not a Primal. Zodiark and Hydealyn have basically replaced the Original Will of the World to prevent the Original Calamity but then we have to question what caused the Original Calamity.

Primals are considered "Fake Gods/Goddesses" because they are born from the imagination of Beings made manifest and most often they need a steady source of Aether to maintain their existance with Zodiark being constant sacrifice of 3.4 of the world and I am assuming Hydealyn been getting her constant energy because she is very close to the lifestream with all souls return to once they die. What if the Real God/Goddess/Will of the world was weakened in the original world by something or someone so he or she could not fight back the Calamity thus WoL's Original Soul was not just a Warrior of Light but THE Warrior of Light that tried to save the world but could not because of STORY reasons.

The Original Will of the Star can be considered the Original/Real God/Goddess but we know it was so weak at the end of the Original Calamity so it just basically given up on living that a new Will had to be made to replace it. However, we lack knowledge to what caused it which I do suspect relates to WoL's Original Souls past and why he or she failed to save the world without needing Zodiark and Hydaelyn.

I suspect we will get more on this in 5.X or atleast during 5.4 to 5.5 since this may be a part of 6.0 storyline.

[Tharne]

Hydelyn is EEEVVVILLL!!! According to some people who won't look at basic thematic readings.

I'm really not under the impression that Hydelyn is evil. I mean, the story could definitely go in that direction, but right now the evidence is shaky at best and doesn't really make any sense thematically. Like, basically on any of the points. I'm splitting up the points below into ideas based on what I've seen, although I'll be using somewhat comical titles.

THEMES YA DORKS!!!
Okay, the is one is pretty simple. If you look at the thematic ideas mainly present in Shadowbringers (so far the most thematically cohesive expansion) then it's pretty clear that Hydelyn isn't the 'bad guy', she's the 'good guy'. The main themes in Shadowbringers are Legacy, Impermanence, and the need for the old to die and new life to be protected and secured. By contrast, the villains attempt to sacrifice or kill new life to unnaturally make the present eternal or bring back the past. Emet-Selch is trying to kill the new (The source/Shards) to resurrect Old Amaouritine.So the protagonists (who the writers expect us to agree with) want to let new life live and move on while the Antagonists attempt to pervert the cycle of life.

Which side of that is Zodark, the guy who wants to eat an entire planet's life to ressurrect souls, on?

Which side of that is Hydelyn, who doesn't want that to happen, on?

Let's forget what happens in the present, let's go back to the time of the Ancients for a second, this is where it all started.

-First of all as much as a lot of people seem to want that to be true : We have no definite proof that it was there Creation Magick that started the Sound from beneath the earth. Every info we get on that front (even from Y'shtola) point to the fact that their Art wasn't affecting the land's aether. And the Sound made them unable to control their Creation Magick (this is what we learn, no speculation), the Calamity isn't their fault since it was out of their control.

-After the deed of summoning Zodiark (willing sacrifice of 50% pop), they saw that the Planet even if saved from the Calamity was still dying and 50% of the remaining population willingly sacrificed themselves to save the Planet. (They saved it 2 times for anyone who's keeping scores)

Then the problems arose with one side wanting to resurrect the sacrifices and one side wanting to let the Planet to the "new lives".

Let's look at the two sides, one at a time :
"Zodiark's side" :
-To begin with, to the people talking about "letting go of the past", I'm pretty sure the decision to resurrect the sacrifices was made not too long after the Calamity, so "letting go of the past" when it's probably not even been a month or two is a pretty bad argument if you ask me. ("Hey all your family/friends died a week ago, just let it go already!").
-And am I the only one who had a different interpretation than a lot of people here when they talked about bringing back their friends ? Hythlodaeus said that they would "nurture life" and offer a portion of its living energy to Zodiark...How is this different than a farmer cultivating his soils/animals for harvest and then consumption ? The only big difference is that Zodiark will bring back people while we will just produce poop. They didn't say that they would destroy the fucking Planet to bring their people back. They don't even have to bring them back all in one go. After that they can continue to nurture life ad infinitum. I would also like to point out that it was them who created most lifeforms on the Planet to begin with.

"Hydaelyn's side" :
-Wants to let the new lives rules the Planet but there is the question of what were this life forms anyway ? Are they the ones that already existed when the Ancients were "in power" but were saved by Zodiark ? Because I'm pretty sure that doesn't qualify as new and that most of them were even created by the Ancients, so there point is moot on that front. We are lacking critical information on this.
-By splitting the Original Planet into 14, they basically destroyed this Original Planet so it's not even the new lives that are ruling since it's "new lives but 14th times weaker than what they were suppose to be" imo. (that's 2 saves for Zodiark and 1 K.O. for Hydaelyn for people keeping scores)

At this point wouldn't this qualify as an act of war against the Council (their government, so it was treason in a sense) ? And since they are pretty much immortals you could say that they are still at war with Hydaelyn. Making them fighting the good fight.

And to finish on a really good bit, I'd like to point out again that the Ancients are born with the ability to use Creation Magick and I saw people said that because the Calamity could happen again, we can't let them live the way they are. Are those people really suggesting to genocide an entire people because of the way they are born and what might happen ? Is this really what you want to go with when defending the summoning of the "good" Hydaelyn ? Are you sure ?

So no, I don't think Hydaelyn is good because the people who summoned her were, imo, wrong.

I think the Ascians are right in what they are doing but we are also right in stopping them (not for Hydaelyn though), we just happened to win.

We gonna get rid of Hydaelyn and Zodiark, then we will tackle what really caused the First Calamity.

[QT_Melon]

Well about Elidibus and his white robe:

Upon closer inspection there are actually a couple of somewhat white Robed figures beneath Zodiark

That said I find Elidibus a little more fascinating due to the fact he didn't seem to align with the other Acians. He is the most obsessed about balance and the one most frustrated in trying to defend or wanting to explain what is the core issue