nin and dnc buffs when?

[KaiSunstrider]

I think people are overcalculating DNC raid dps contribution. Someone said 9k personal with 3k dps raid buff but this isn't the case as their 5% dps buff isn't 100% uptime for raid, only their partner.

Technical finish is a 5% dmg buff for 20 secs on a 120 sec CD. Same uptime as trick attack but half the buff. 5%*20/120= 0.83% raid dmg buff with perfect use. At 60k raid dps, that's only 498 added dps. Assuming you place your closed position on a 12k dps, then 5% is 600 dps from standard step.

Roughly, that means DNCs added raid contribution is 1100 dps. This puts it's total contribution at 9300 dps (personal + raid dmg added) based on average Titania logs which put it's behind BRD and MCH by a decent margin. Considering you typically play a support class because it's total contribution outweighs other non support classes total contribution, it's currently mathmatically weak. Atm DNC's total contribution including dps from buffing doesnt match other ranged/physical dps. Same goes for NIN as they are roughly in the same boat with similar contributions.

[HyoMinPark]

I think people are overcalculating DNC raid dps contribution. Someone said 9k personal with 3k raid buff but this isn't the case.

Technical finish is a 5% dmg buff for 20 secs on a 120 sec CD. Same uptime as trick attack but half the buff. 5%*20/120= 0.83% raid dmg buff. At 60k raid dps, that's only 498 added dps. Assuming you place your closed position on a 12k dps, then 5% is 600 dps. Roughly that means dncs added raid contribution is 1100 dps. Which put it's total contribution at an average dps of 9300 dps based on average Titania logs which is still behind put it's behind BRD and MCH by a decent margin considering you typically play a support class because it's total contribution outweighs other non support classes total contribution. Atm DNC's total contribution including dps from buffing is on bottom.

I think the post you are referring to was just using numbers as an example to illustrate what balancing pDPS + rDPS between jobs should look like. I don’t think they were trying to quote factual values, but I could be wrong. The post is worded to imply it’s just an example. Not reality.

[KaiSunstrider]

I think the post you are referring to was just using numbers as an example to illustrate what balancing pDPS + rDPS between jobs should look like. I don’t think they were trying to quote factual values, but I could be wrong. The post is worded to imply it’s just an example. Not reality.

You are probably correct, but I think the fact still remains that based on other posts, people wildly overestimate the raid dps contribution of NIN and DNC. When in reality their raid dps contribution is only about an extra 1.8% which equates to about 1000 dps. With NIN and DNC both being 2k dps behind their spot competition, its obvious that some love is needed.

I personally enjoy playing support classes because while my personal dps is much lower than other classes, my "total contribution" through raid buffs is higher than the personal dps of other jobs that have no raid contribution. Unfortunately, this is not currently the case. BRD is 1400 dps ahead of DNC and MCH is 1900 dps ahead. If square wanted to keep the feeling of support role with dancer, they could keep their personal dps where it is and just buff the dances.

If they buffed both Tech and Standard to 10% damage from 5% then their raid contribution would increase from 1000 to about 2000 roughly (based on 60k raid dps, and 10k personal dps from dance partner)

MCH current average total contribution = 10,040 dps
DNC current average total contribution = 8,133 personal + 1000 raid = 9,233 dps
DNC with proposed dance buffs = 8539 personal dps (5% more from standard) + 2000 raid contribution = 10,539 dps

We would still be 1500 dps behind MCH in terms of personal damage, but our total raid contribution would be 400 dps higher which satisfies lower personal for higher total gain and puts our total contribution just behind BLM. This would make DNC very desirable to bring over the other the other two which was the point of why you brought supports in the first place. Obviously this number could be peeled back to 9% or 8% to bring them more in line/equal to the contribution of MCH for "real balance" and not make it feel that a DNC is required.

[RhaesDaenys]

Was doing Titania EX as the only dancer, buffing our MNK. I was barely pulling 7.3k dps while all the other DPS were easily 10k each, the MNK at 11k. Tanks were pulling off 6.3k.

We need an RNG buff, or a potency buff, and Saber Dance off GCD. Otherwise we will always lag behind competent DPS by 20-30% dps, which is ATROCIOUS and makes Dancer not viable in a raid. Being behind 10% is what I would expect, but not 20-30%.

Also, before anyone says "You're doing it wrong." I'm not and the guys I'm playing with have been playing their classes since ARR. Dancer just isn't raid viable. The heal is laughable, and the RNG is crap. I honestly feel gipped going from MNK to Dancer because I know I could pull off crazier DPS as a monk.

[Vendalwind]

I think the post you are referring to was just using numbers as an example to illustrate what balancing pDPS + rDPS between jobs should look like. I don’t think they were trying to quote factual values, but I could be wrong. The post is worded to imply it’s just an example. Not reality.

Additionally you have to keep in mind that lining up with bursts for the team like people did with trick means the rDPS contribution is actually higher than the 5% 1/6th calculation. Just as TA is higher than 10% 1/6th because of how teams effectively used it.

And people underestimate devilment. devilment is freaking huge. Especially when paired with both 5%s stacked on the partner for a planned burst. like it's literally ridiculous, and as crit gets higher its value will get higher as well.

additionally if you say a healer+tnk is nearly equivalent to a dps (its actually less but lets just say that for now) then a party consists of 6 character dps approximately. the 5% single target boost then becomes 1/6 since its 100% uptime. but you also have to consider it's placement on the top dps like a BLM where its value increases far beyond that.

So in short disregarding devilment entirely I'd personally say dancer is already stronger than TA because of the way its focus is applied. with devilment even more so. and dancers are barely performing less than NIN in pDPS if at all. and NIN is far FAR harder to play and maintain both the buffs and a good pDPS with than dancer. It feels bad

Also NINs potencies did all get buffed, but anyone that looks at that alone is forgetting the massive nerf we got accross the board with the loss of dripping blades. which was 20%.

So when looking at our standard GCD 3 before SHB spinning was effectively 180 post its now 200, (+20 total so far) Gust slash was effectively 240 now 250 so (+30 tsf) and aeolian was effectively ~ 410 and is now 420. (+40) so that big potency buff everyone talks about? yeah it barely happened. We got 40 more potency over 3 GCDs BUT since dripping blades applied to everything we also LOST potency on
Mug
Dream within a dream
Death Blossom
Shadowfangs loss of 10% slashing dmg bonus
Throwing dagger
and some ninjitsu.

So what looked like a buff to potency actually may have been a nerf over all because of the removal of dripping blades. It would take a lot of work to math it out.

[Kabooa]

Also, before anyone says "You're doing it wrong." I'm not

Are you sure?

I don't know much about dancer, but generally speaking, when this statement comes out, it's a red flag. I can almost guarantee that you can be doing something better. Even the people hitting the gold star will say "I could have done this better".

So I think, first and foremost, you should step back and ask what you can do better.

That being said - Fan Dances probably don't need to be RNG.

[YanderePrincess]

Was doing Titania EX as the only dancer, buffing our MNK. I was barely pulling 7.3k dps while all the other DPS were easily 10k each, the MNK at 11k. Tanks were pulling off 6.3k.

We need an RNG buff, or a potency buff, and Saber Dance off GCD. Otherwise we will always lag behind competent DPS by 20-30% dps, which is ATROCIOUS and makes Dancer not viable in a raid. Being behind 10% is what I would expect, but not 20-30%.

Also, before anyone says "You're doing it wrong." I'm not and the guys I'm playing with have been playing their classes since ARR. Dancer just isn't raid viable. The heal is laughable, and the RNG is crap. I honestly feel gipped going from MNK to Dancer because I know I could pull off crazier DPS as a monk.

400 potency AOE heal isn't viable???

[Repulse97]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. DNC personal dps is low, but I'm more than happy with it because it's a support job. You literally increase everyone else's dps. That's what a support does. Did you want a support job to have high dps AND high rdps? Cause that sounds like an unbalanced mess.

[Kabooa]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. DNC personal dps is low, but I'm more than happy with it because it's a support job. You literally increase everyone else's dps. That's what a support does. Did you want a support job to have high dps AND high rdps? Cause that sounds like an unbalanced mess.

When the 4 dancer meme becomes the 4 dancer dream

[KaiSunstrider]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. DNC personal dps is low, but I'm more than happy with it because it's a support job. You literally increase everyone else's dps. That's what a support does. Did you want a support job to have high dps AND high rdps? Cause that sounds like an unbalanced mess.

I don't think anyone expected it to have high personal dps persay, but when comparing the jobs you must consider total contribution of the jobs. If a support classes total contribution (personal + support added dps) is much lower than another similar role job total contribution, then it is an issue. We don't need to balance personal contribution, but we do need to adjust total contributions.

This is the current issue people are having. MCH which has no party damage contributions and only personal contribution currently has a marginally higher "total contribution" than DNCs personal contribution + support contribution".