The DPS is not the Healer

[Awha]

I just... what? The tank's job is to set the pace of the dungeon. It's not entitlement, it's the role's job.

I would argue that it is the tanks job to be able to accurately set a pace that matches the capabilities and desire of the group. I do not think tanks have a blanket pass to set the pace overriding the group.

Also from my personal experience as a healer especially with the changes to tanks, dps generally are far more important to how smooth large pulls go.

[NanaWiloh]

If your tank is getting their face smashed despite CD usage in: Dont do big pulls

If your healer is struggling despite CD usage : Dont do big pulls

If mobs are dying slower then cold syrup pouring out of a bottle: Dont do big pulls

Does not get any simpler then that to judge if a group can handle large pulls or not.

[SturmChurro]

I recently found out.. in the 3 and a half hours of extreme Titania runs I was doing with a party finder group... We failed to kill it at enrage about 4 times at .2%/.1%. I recently found out that one of the healers, apparently, literally did NOTHING in terms of DPS, and I mean NOTHING. If that healer would have actually done a tiny bit of dps we wouldn't have wasted 2 extra hours.

[Insertcoins]

AS a default DPS player and tank on off days 'd just say this. As a monk that recently got to 80... .I'm bored to tears when people pull slow, I rage out when I'm the only one AOEing.... and yes.. that means healers not aoeing too.. I've seen it. I cry when big pulls happen but the tank doesn't do his job and I'm popping fist of earth, I'm screaming when both the healer AND tank die cause they think they can handle a large pull but die cause they have wet blankets for gear. But when a tank pulls big, and the healer can keep him alive, and I get to rockbreaker, hadoken, and spinning bird kick my way to freedom and hit those top DPS charts, I walk away from that like the mother fucker main character... cause I AM. i don't need you as a tank or healer to tell me I'm useless... what I need you to do is your JOB.. do it well so I can be badass. Keep the mobs on YOU, Healer keep that tank from dying to being hit in the face and let me.. the worthless DPS do my job. to kill everything possible.

My name is Sony LTD... and I like big pulls when the tank is geared and smart, when the healer is the same.. and when my partner in crime.. my co DPS aoes with me. I want to be tested on my dps.. so test me! I'm a MONK DAMMIT. Let me HADOKEN EVERYTHING. Just don't make me pop fist of earth cause you can't handle the pull....

[JohnSpawnVFX]

If you pull it, you tank it. This has been a reality for many, many years. DPS does not have the right to pull. Now, the healer? Yes. If the healer demands a higher pace, then forward march. (Not that this is an issue for me, as I've already addressed this.) Again, you are simply denying reality about how the roles work. DPS who pull get to tank what they spank, and you rarely find a tank or healer that doesn't agree with this same sentiment.

If the DPS have the opportunity to pull ahead, you're skimping out on your role. If you let the DPS tank it, they're probably just going to kick you at the first opportunity (and they just need the other DPS to agree). And need I remind you that with everyone and their grandma leveling up Gunbreaker, there's no shortage or wait time for a new tank to join.

[ksuyen]

I agree that as a tank we have to lead the group by positioning ourselves in front, do the pull. In rare occasions when nobody speaks up, I have to make a decision how big the pull will be. When I tank I usually ask the following:
1. Is this my first time in the dungeon? Then slow down, try pull small group first to learn the fight.
2. How long does it take to kill the mobs? If it takes forever then slow down --> dps check. Killing faster > killing more so we can move on quickly to the next group.
3. How fast is my HP drop even with using all cooldown? If I lost my HP <50% every few seconds, then slow down --> healer check.

[Hawklaser]

I kinda wanted to chime in due to some of the responses that came after the below, as its kind of highlighted a trend across several MMO's I have played.

Idk how you guys manage to pull wall to wall in this expansion i found myself struggling to survive pulls like this and i had multiple cases of wipes because of it, it is a lot more difficult to do so today and it feels weird.
Pls give us protect bac.

Xatsh pretty much got it right on for group speed and the answer to the original question, a lot of it depends on tank and healer capabilities.

Pulling large groups requires gear from both the tank and healer and knowledge of when to pop what buffs.

I have healed tanks in dungeons with no issues... then I had tanks that literally feel like they are wearing no armor at all in dungeons and just literally melt and die with me tossing bene, tetra, temperance, assize, healing bubble, using 5ish lilys and multiple shields all in 1 pull when doing mass pulls.

Large pulls are up to the tank and healer over all else, that simple they set the pace for the run. Honestly tank more the healer. It is their role in the party.


If they are not ready for large pulls, they SHOULD NOT do them. Wiping and running back waste more time then killing slightly smaller groups.

These next two from Mistyregions and Eli85 kinda highlight the trend I have noticed. That of newer MMO's groups generally approach things in a much slower and methodical way and using various crowd control as well. The older the game gets, the more people just want to speedrun the everything possible.

People like you make me pray we wall lock every single 3 trash mob, just to force you do the game as intended and not force people to play outside the intended mechanics.

I pray for that day as a MT, I will laugh in glory as you no longer can force your playstyle on others. You wanna be entitled and childish? Then I think the developers should treat yall like children.

Entitled tank and healer mentality, right here. It's a decision for the group, not the tank and / or healer. Tanks and healers are not special snowflakes, and they do not get more privileges than DPS players.

Early on, most take things slow and deliberate through group content. Then as more and more skilled people push endgame and learn what works best, they start doing the larger pulls in endgame dungeons they are trying to farm as they get more geared and more knowledgeable about the dungeon, until eventually you get a few that get bored with doing the same couple dungeons over and over so they go back and try doing the same thing with earlier dungeons. Which slowly over time becomes the expected way to run all dungeons, usually accelerated once a roulette/cross server system crops up. It becomes the expected way thanks the more hardcore players that can handle those pulls keep playing and also sustain a game between major content releases such as expansions, in addition to the videos that get put out by them showing how they do it.

This trend may also account for the skill gap that people seem to complain about, as rarely hear about the middle ground, but hear about the low ground all the time. In a way, we, the players, overtime create a skills gap by eliminating the middle ground, as the hard core endgame people eventually push their strategies back into the new players areas and ends up eventually removing the point where people might naturally be inclined to push themselves to see what else they can achieve. We turn it into more of a rote memorization, instead of organic learning, which then leads to that odd skill gap thanks to the middle ground not ever really needing to learn to manage when things go south and have to adapt on the fly.

[DavidIven]

as a dps main, during my journey from 70 to 80, I havent met any tank or healer cant handle big pulls, even healers can put solid dps. If you have problems maybe, just git gud?

[Sarevok_Thordin]

When I first saw this thread I thought "Is this about all the support healing I've had to do as a RDM?"

Yep I've had to do that a lot, good for commends.

[Hash_Browns]

If you pull it, you tank it. This has been a reality for many, many years. DPS does not have the right to pull. Now, the healer? Yes. If the healer demands a higher pace, then forward march. (Not that this is an issue for me, as I've already addressed this.) Again, you are simply denying reality about how the roles work. DPS who pull get to tank what they spank, and you rarely find a tank or healer that doesn't agree with this same sentiment.

"You pull it, you tank it" is the last thing tanks usually say when I start a vote kick.