Question for fellow DRK's who have played its new Shb iteration.

[shao32]

If you squint and look really hard, you could consider Darkside vs TBN to be the original Dark Knight gimmick of burning HP for power. Since each Darkness attack you use is MP that isn't used for your shield, it's trading defence for power. But, if the shield breaks, you get a free dark attack, so effective use of the shield doesn't curb your DPS at all, rewarding good gameplay.

Personally, I don't think DRK and WAR are that similar, and people are just using the old argument of "it's too warrior-like, stop making us discount warrior" without really thinking about it. Are they similar? Yeah, but so is GNB and PLD. Are they different enough that they still feel fun to play? Yeah, I'd say so.

i consider GNB and PLD pretty diferent from each other, yes both have a 20% damage window but the way they have to manage that window is complety diferent and GNB combos are nothing like PLD ones while PLD have the requiem cast window GNB have his burst combo.

now WAR and DRK both have the same burst window with the same duration and recast, i grant that in terms of numbers are not exact but mechanically speacking are exactly the same, betwen that both jobs use they combos with DRK having only 1 and WAR haing 2, DRK have more oGCD usage that WAR but not much and blood weapon is comparable to infuriate with same recast but at least this ones are diferent enough, i will say both DRK and WAR are the same around a 70-75% of the gameplay wich is a lot compared to the old versions was 0% similar, so yeah any old DRK have strong WAR feelings in this version.

[Ekimmak]

i consider GNB and PLD pretty diferent from each other, yes both have a 20% damage window but the way they have to manage that window is complety diferent and GNB combos are nothing like PLD ones while PLD have the requiem cast window GNB have his burst combo.

Well, I apparently missed making my point there, because what I meant was "all the tanks feel the same".

now WAR and DRK both have the same burst window with the same duration and recast, i grant that in terms of numbers are not exact but mechanically speacking are exactly the same, betwen that both jobs use they combos with DRK having only 1 and WAR haing 2, DRK have more oGCD usage that WAR but not much and blood weapon is comparable to infuriate with same recast but at least this ones are diferent enough, i will say both DRK and WAR are the same around a 70-75% of the gameplay wich is a lot compared to the old versions was 0% similar, so yeah any old DRK have strong WAR feelings in this version.

And there's the problem. Delirium and Inner Release feel too similar, and that's what's bugging people. But that's not what they're saying, they're saying that DRK is too similar to WAR. By all means, be vocal about it, you might get the miracle rework that WAR had in SB, just try and be clear about it.

I think purpose wise, IR and Delirium are quite different, as Inner Release is overboosting Fell Cleave/Decimate, and offhand increasing the number of Infuriates (and the upgraded attacks that brings), while Delirium is bringing in more MP, and adding extra Edge/Flood attacks you can get. They aren't more powerful, but they are off cooldown damage.

So functionally, even the skills causing this complaint aren't just copy-pastes ... but they feel similar, and the feel of a class is much more important.

[Reynhart]

So functionally, even the skills causing this complaint aren't just copy-pastes ... but they feel similar, and the feel of a class is much more important.

I'd say, for me, this is especially infuriating (...) since this is the biggest change of DRK. Sure, we lost the Dark Art skill, and a toggled Darkside, but Edge/Flood is the spam button for damage, and so easily maintain Darkside that it could well be a toggle.
So, apart from a new AoE combo, which, let's be honest, is awesome to use in combat, the focus of the new DRK is the new Delirium.

[therpgfanatic]

I'd say, for me, this is especially infuriating (...) since this is the biggest change of DRK. Sure, we lost the Dark Art skill, and a toggled Darkside, but Edge/Flood is the spam button for damage, and so easily maintain Darkside that it could well be a toggle.
So, apart from a new AoE combo, which, let's be honest, is awesome to use in combat, the focus of the new DRK is the new Delirium.

Edge and Flood are not actually your spam attacks. People get that impression because they have no cooldown but these moves cost MP, a finite resource shared with Blackest Night, and trigger Darkside which is damage bonus buff intended to be kept up 100% of the time.

It's hard to describe but I figured out the intended rotation for DRK. You're not supposed to spam Edge and Flood. You're supposed to regard them as MP dumps, along with Blackest Night. With the way DRK is designed, your main goal while tanking is to try to keep Blackest Night up all the time, only using Edges and Floods as needed to dump excess MP, and triggering Blood Weapon almost every time it comes up alongside Carve and Spit.

DRK's intended burst is Delirium Bloodspiller / Quietus spam and Living Shadow.

You're supposed to keep Blackest Night up as much as is possible to do, and I think this is what a lot of people are missing from the new design.

The thing is, right now DRK doesn't necessarily need to keep Blackest Night up constantly outside of larger trash pulls. But it's certainly possible to trigger it just about every 15 seconds while fighting a boss if you only use Edge / Flood as a dump for excess MP and primarily use it to keep Darkside up.

General trash pull rotation is Plunge, Flood of Shadow, Unleash, Stalwart Soul, Blackest Night, Arms Length, Flood of Shadow, Delirium, Quietus spam until it ends, Carve and Spit, Blood Weapon, Unleash, Stalwart Soul, Flood of Shadow, Blackest Night, spam Unleash + Stalwart Soul and dump excess MP into Floods until Delirium is up again. Repeat. Also use Living Shadow as available.

For bosses, replace Unleash Combo with Souleater combo, and use Edge instead of Flood, and double up Blackest Night with either Dark Mind, Shadow Wall, Rampart or Reprisal for a tankbuster.

With how "dodge this AoE" mechanic driven boss combat now is, this plays pretty well, generally with DRK able to do a burst on bosses in between AoE dancing.

[WhyAmIHere]

And there's the problem. Delirium and Inner Release feel too similar, and that's what's bugging people. But that's not what they're saying, they're saying that DRK is too similar to WAR. By all means, be vocal about it, you might get the miracle rework that WAR had in SB, just try and be clear about it.

I think purpose wise, IR and Delirium are quite different, as Inner Release is overboosting Fell Cleave/Decimate, and offhand increasing the number of Infuriates (and the upgraded attacks that brings), while Delirium is bringing in more MP, and adding extra Edge/Flood attacks you can get. They aren't more powerful, but they are off cooldown damage.

So functionally, even the skills causing this complaint aren't just copy-pastes ... but they feel similar, and the feel of a class is much more important.

The last time this forum got together to voice dislike of the 5.0 iteration of Delirium, the thread got removed. =/

[Reynhart]

Edge and Flood are not actually your spam attacks. People get that impression because they have no cooldown but these moves cost MP, a finite resource shared with Blackest Night

Exactly like Dark Arts was in SB. So, it's a new painting, but it's roughly the same mechanic.

and trigger Darkside which is damage bonus buff intended to be kept up 100% of the time.

Considering the only thing you need MP for is Edge/Flood and TBN, there's no real management required to keep Darkside 100% of the time. Again, really close to how Darkside worked in SB.

Which, as I said, end with Delirium as the biggest mechanic change of the DRK, thus, why people are so upset that this specific change is that close to a WAR skill.

[Kirisu]

I've been playing my DRK at level 80 for about a week now and I've never had any major issues with MP management, if I eat a buster raw its not because I didn't have the MP to use TBN, its because I didn't clip the snapshot, I.E: I was simply too slow.

Syphon Strike, Blood Weapon and Delirium are more than sufficient to upkeep your MP at acceptable levels, unless of course you're spamming Edge of Shadow like a madman (which you shouldn't be, unless you're STR potting a burst window there's no reason you to weave Edge or Flood more than once every thirty seconds.)

[shao32]

Well, I apparently missed making my point there, because what I meant was "all the tanks feel the same".



And there's the problem. Delirium and Inner Release feel too similar, and that's what's bugging people. But that's not what they're saying, they're saying that DRK is too similar to WAR. By all means, be vocal about it, you might get the miracle rework that WAR had in SB, just try and be clear about it.

I think purpose wise, IR and Delirium are quite different, as Inner Release is overboosting Fell Cleave/Decimate, and offhand increasing the number of Infuriates (and the upgraded attacks that brings), while Delirium is bringing in more MP, and adding extra Edge/Flood attacks you can get. They aren't more powerful, but they are off cooldown damage.

So functionally, even the skills causing this complaint aren't just copy-pastes ... but they feel similar, and the feel of a class is much more important.

delirium it's more close to inner release as you think, in SB DRK main source of damage was soul eater, in HW was delirium, in SHB is bloodspiller, like it or not delirium contribute a lot and the most imprtant, excatly like inner release you just press the butom and use you 5 dark cleaves in a row exactly the same as WAR. we have a big thread about delirium and it was deleted for no reason, so there was out feedback.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Maybe the Dark Knight could be some sort of Revenge Tank. I'd actually quite like that identity. Dishing out counter attacks after absorbing Tankbusters, having increased damage with low health, and being able to perform a devastating attack during LD/WD.

Dark Knight with some sort of 'Revenge Counter' would be lovely.

They dropped almost all the Counter attacks (only Vengence still has it's very limited counter effect still) so that no tank would favor the MT role.

[Reynhart]

They dropped almost all the Counter attacks (only Vengence still has it's very limited counter effect still) so that no tank would favor the MT role.

Cover and TBN are nice way to bypass the MT requirement, they could have done other things like that. You could also have party effect that increase your "counter" damage with the damage the party takes, and not directly the tank.