Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[savageink]

Ran like two or three 50+ dungeons lately where I ended up with a MCH that didn't use their turret. And yes I know you can't see their name plate anymore but you can see the tiny arrow on the minimap that represents a "pet" and I didn't see it either.
I can understand being confused or what because of the changes (especially on MCH) but the turret was a thing even before that...

I don't get it, isn't it an essential tool for MCH ? Or did something really massive change with ShB that made the turret obsolete ? Did I miss something ? lol

its not persistant anymore, it works like an ability and leaves when it explodes or its gauge is used up...and it has a cooldown. so, don't expect to see it up all the time. and the aoe turret is completely gone.

[DarkMasamune]

its not persistant anymore, it works like an ability and leaves when it explodes or its gauge is used up...and it has a cooldown. so, don't expect to see it up all the time. and the aoe turret is completely gone.

Yeah I know that, it uses the battery gauge and everything. I just really never saw it once :x

But yeah, I think it's because it's still quite 'new', especially since MCH was kind of entirely remodeled, so I just leave it. Was just wondering if I was missing something since it happened multiple times

[Rivxkobe]

While I'm not the one you directed this question to, I might also be able to give some insight as well. When I'm brand new to any dungeon on Sch, I don't often do much DPS for the first couple runs. Mostly because don't know the dungeon, and not quite sure of the windows for it. That would be the first major factor of why I might not be doing DPS on Sch, the 2nd major factor is getting a feel for the party. If the tank isn't using enough cooldowns, or DPS keeps standing in the AoE's, it begins to put a strain on my resources sometimes to the point its hard to justify spending them on DPS instead of saving them to make sure have enough on hand to prevent a wipe.

Once I know the dungeon, and/or if the party seems decent, I'll toss out damage whenever I can do so. As the quicker the enemies die, the less chances there are for people to stand in some of the brutal AoE's.

Another thing, as I know I have done it a time or two, would be getting tunnel vision while doing one thing and overlook the other a bit too much. And some might just want to avoid that entirely.

Makes sense.

And I totally know about tunnel vision. I am guilty of it myself.

[HyoMinPark]

That's what vote kick was made for. Or you could just stop healing him and say "I'll heal you if I feel like it." There's difference in playstyle, and then there's outright idiocy that should not be tolerated. If he wasn't keeping aggro, he wasn't doing his job. There's literally no justification for that.

The issue with vote kicking was that this occurred literally on the first pull. You can’t initiate a kick until 5 minutes have elapsed in the duty. You also cannot initiate a kick while in combat or while loot is present—so its fairly easy to make sure you don’t get kicked if you know how to exploit the system like that. That said, I usually kick as a last resort, because I have a fairly high tolerance when it comes to duties—and I didn’t want to be waiting for a new tank with ~30 minutes left before maintenance started.

Makes sense.

And I totally know about tunnel vision. I am guilty of it myself.

I think there’s a difference between tunneling and “forgetting” to do something, and these healers that insist they don’t have to deal damage because “I’m a healer, not a DPS”. The latter was definitely the vibe I was getting from the post you responded to.

[MariaArvana]

Well, I’ve finally finished the MSQ and got DNC to 80 (btw, best expansion so far! ), and I’ve started leveling my healers. I started with AST, so a friend and I queued into the first ShB dungeon, and we got a GNB who wasn’t using his AOE combos for packs. Which meant the DPS were tanking because he was single-targeting. My friend, who almost died three times being a NIN tank, asked for them to grab aggro off of them. GNB didn’t grab aggro. I spoke up saying that GNB had a super monstrous AOE combo that they can use (since they were only level 71), and the response was:

“I’ll use it if I feel like it.”

I replied with “Well, please use it so that I’m not having to heal the DPS and you.” Then I was told to “chill” and to “stop being nasty”.

Pardon? How is it being nasty to ask the tank to hold aggro off the DPS? My friend said, “We are chill. We just want you to hold aggro.” I said that I wasn’t even angry with it until they made the stupid comment of “I’ll use it if I feel like it.” After calling them out on that, they replied that it was “a joke” and that I “still need to chill”.

Just. Smdh...

Ah yes, even with enmity basically being impossible to fail at now, some tanks will defy the impossible and not get aggro anyway. I feel for ya.

If a tank ever did that to me, I'd simply let their HP get super low and reply with "I'll heal you when I feel like it."

[Hawklaser]

I think there’s a difference between tunneling and “forgetting” to do something, and these healers that insist they don’t have to deal damage because “I’m a healer, not a DPS”. The latter was definitely the vibe I was getting from the post you responded to.

I had to go track this down again, as I remembered a dev comment about dungeon balance not accounting for healer dps. As if referring to me, my first priority as a healer will always be trying to keep everyone up, and damage comes 2nd to that. I do damage when I can safely do so. (the 77 dungeon is a wonderful example of this, tons of nice spots on 2 of the bosses for a good healer to go ham with dps for a bit, makes for a very fun dungeon)

Slycer from BG translated a Game Watch interview with Yoshi-P. His translation can be found here.

Of note, there was a discussion about WHM DPS which lead to a tangent about raid design and the DPS check, leading to this quote:

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

The reason I brought this up was partially because there's been a discussion in a few thread in the past where posters indicate if the developers may or may not have accounted for healer DPS when they built their raids and/or dungeons.

(I also just want to have this quote handy in my history =D)

To quote, the DPS check is calculated by:

They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

What this means to me:

No, as a healer you are not required to DPS to beat content.

However,

Yes, you are inefficient if you aren't DPSing when opportunities present themselves to allow for DPS because the dev team gave you the tools to increase your DPS presence.

And

Yes, you should be attempting to play your role to the best of your capabilities (whether it be Tank, DPS, Heals).

In his post, there are quotes of YoshiP, stating that the devs do not take healer DPS into account when designing dungeons, just damage from Tanks and DPS. Which I think is a good design choice as it ensures healer priorities stay as healing first, and can add more when able. I also agree with Ghishlain's conclusions at the end.

[HyoMinPark]

I had to go track this down again, as I remembered a dev comment about dungeon balance not accounting for healer dps. As if referring to me, my first priority as a healer will always be trying to keep everyone up, and damage comes 2nd to that. I do damage when I can safely do so. (the 77 dungeon is a wonderful example of this, tons of nice spots on 2 of the bosses for a good healer to go ham with dps for a bit, makes for a very fun dungeon)

In his post, there are quotes of YoshiP, stating that the devs do not take healer DPS into account when designing dungeons, just damage from Tanks and DPS. Which I think is a good design choice as it ensures healer priorities stay as healing first, and can add more when able. I also agree with Ghishlain's conclusions at the end.

You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not talking about healers that opt to DPS over heal—they are neglecting their primary role at that point, and I do not condone that. I am talking about the healers that stand around idle and do nothing other than spam a single heal on the tank occasionally or when the tank is at 95% HP—as this is usually how their playstyle goes.

I am well aware that the developers do not take healer DPS into account when it comes to dungeons—however, in my opinion, that does not excuse healers from standing around and doing nothing most of the encounter. When the other two roles are expected to be active 100% of the time and to utilize the entire toolkit, I find it unfair for the third to think that they can get away with only being active 50% of the time or less and not using their entire kit.


All this said, Yoshida explicitly said prior to Shadowbringers release that, though they do not balance most encounters (most, but not all) with healers pushing out the kind of numbers that they are capable of, they also do not think that healers should not NOT contribute to damage when they are able.

[Hawklaser]

You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not talking about healers that opt to DPS over heal—they are neglecting their primary role at that point, and I do not condone that. I am talking about the healers that stand around idle and do nothing other than spam a single heal on the tank occasionally or when the tank is at 95% HP—as this is usually how their playstyle goes.

I am well aware that the developers do not take healer DPS into account when it comes to dungeons—however, in my opinion, that does not excuse healers from standing around and doing nothing most of the encounter. When the other two roles are expected to be active 100% of the time and to utilize the entire toolkit, I find it unfair for the third to think that they can get away with only being active 50% of the time or less and not using their entire kit.

The post I quoted of yours might have been pointed at a different person and I may have missed that, but it seemed that

these healers that insist they don’t have to deal damage because “I’m a healer, not a DPS”. The latter was definitely the vibe I was getting from the post you responded to.

might have been directed at me due to me being the one to initially bring up tunnel vision that the person you quoted was replying to at the time. Hence why went looking for the dev comment about healer dps.

I don't condone the standing around and not doing anything playstyle either. But some of that does come into play when first learning a particular dungeon/trial for healers, as healing by its nature tends to be more reactive and not proactive. Which is part of why I prefer Sch over Whm, as it requires being more proactive to do well.

All this said, Yoshida explicitly said prior to Shadowbringers release that, though they do not balance most encounters (most, but not all) with healers pushing out the kind of numbers that they are capable of, they also do not think that healers should not NOT contribute to damage when they are able.

I did not see that statement. Good to know that the design philosophy hasn't changed regarding healers and their damage. (the final boss in Dohn Meg(sp?) has one phase I can clearly see being one of the exceptions mentioned)

[spf1200]

Ran tam Tara the other day with a sch. He didn't cast a single spell the whole run. We of course cleared it fine but I really wish the tank had slowed down enough for me to get a chance to try to kick the sch. I don't like leaches.

[AlphaFox]

While I'm not the one you directed this question to, I might also be able to give some insight as well. When I'm brand new to any dungeon on Sch, I don't often do much DPS for the first couple runs. Mostly because don't know the dungeon, and not quite sure of the windows for it. That would be the first major factor of why I might not be doing DPS on Sch, the 2nd major factor is getting a feel for the party. If the tank isn't using enough cooldowns, or DPS keeps standing in the AoE's, it begins to put a strain on my resources sometimes to the point its hard to justify spending them on DPS instead of saving them to make sure have enough on hand to prevent a wipe.

Once I know the dungeon, and/or if the party seems decent, I'll toss out damage whenever I can do so. As the quicker the enemies die, the less chances there are for people to stand in some of the brutal AoE's.

Another thing, as I know I have done it a time or two, would be getting tunnel vision while doing one thing and overlook the other a bit too much. And some might just want to avoid that entirely.

Just to mention about it. While I am certainly all for people not DPSing if they are new, rusty or just can't keep my HP up for one reason or another. What does make me scream as a Healer pretty much most of HW and SB is when they are over-geared, have ran the dungeon 100s of times and still refuse to even throw out a single DoT or AoE. These are the same people who will in lower level dungeons on SCH (Dunno if you can now, never played it nor know the changes) will put themselves to follow then AFK the entire dungeon or even snap about "This is taking too long!"


As for my story of the day. I think I was hexing instead of buffing my partners. Doing Lakshmi for Trial roulette and it seemed every DPS I put as my dance partner was the next to die or forget to pop Vril. Which would then in turn be me tossing it to the next DPS and repeat. Did get an odd tingly feeling being the only Dancer in that trial, the music just seemed right for the class.