Please Square do not turn Lyna into Lyse 2.0

[Sated]

The fact that we don't steal stories from the characters they're relevant to is part of what I love so much about this game and why its storytelling is so great.

But I agree Lyse's story wasn't handled very well.

I think if she had a more active role it might have helped, since despite being present for so much of the content it didn't feel like she was doing as much for Ala Mhigo as her Doman counterparts did for Doma.

[ForteNightshade]

I loved Lyse, and it's untrue that she took credit for anything others did o_o
If anything, she spent most of the expansion being a support character, this wasn't her story but the story of everyone.

Uh... the entire reason we even went to Ala Mhigo was because of Lyse. The story revolved her completely. The characters constantly shill her every chance they get and the narrative does little to suggest anything she says or does was wrong. Take her whole approach when we initially go to Ala Mhigo. While she does get called out briefly for insisting they still fight. Almost nothing is said about her opinions being incredibly bias and idealistic. No one really says anything about how difficult their lives have been, which is why they don't stand up. We're the ones who convinces them yet the narrative credits Lyse, who did next to nothing. And the narrative yet again backs up Lyse's aforementioned belief "you should always fight because!!!"

I disagree she was a support character. She took center stage for Ala Mhigo much in the same way Hien did for Doma. Except with Hien, the narrative made several points of acknowledging your presence and how it influenced him. That seldom, if ever, occurred with Lyse.

[Bright-Flower]

Not exactly, the Eorzean Alliance by by extnesion the Scions got involved because Ilberd forced their hand. Lyse decided to go to ala mhigo sure, but without the events at Baelsar's wall none of it would have happened.

And really I don't feel we're any more or less the protaonist than we were in HW where it really felt more like Estinien, Ysale and especially Alph's story more so than our own. The WOL has basically always just been the 'muscle' going around killing monsters and primals and stuff for the agendas of others. The WOL has never, and likely will never, have real agency of their own in the msq, or have any values, goals or motivations that aren't super vague or projected onto them by the player. We're only the main character in that we're the one that fights the bad guys. I don't think Lyse stole our thunder any more than Estinien or Alph etc.

[HyoMinPark]

And really I don't feel we're any more or less the protaonist than we were in HW where it really felt more like Estinien, Ysale and especially Alph's story more so than our own. The WOL has basically always just been the 'muscle' going around killing monsters and primals and stuff for the agendas of others. The WOL has never, and likely will never, have real agency of their own in the msq, or have any values, goals or motivations that aren't super vague or projected onto them by the player. We're only the main character in that we're the one that fights the bad guys. I don't think Lyse stole our thunder any more than Estinien or Alph etc.

I gotta disagree. I felt like we were pretty relevant to the Heavensward story, and I don’t think that Alphinaud, Estinien, or Ysayle really took away from us in any way. I mean, we end up saving Estinien in the conclusion of the Dragonsong War (alongside Alphinaud).

I don’t particularly think Lyse stole anything from us—the issue with her is that we could have accomplished everything in Stormblood without her. Hien made a much better leader than her in every way, and I don’t think we could have successfully liberated Doma without his aid. However, she could have been taken out of the story entirely, and nothing would have changed—we would have still freed Ala Mhigo, and done what we did in Doma. Raubahn was more influential than she was when it came to Ala Mhigo’s story, in my opinion. Lyse was just kind of...there.
Though she did take front and center at the end of 4.0 proper—but let’s be real here. We fought Zenos and Shinryu, and she put on a red dress. Who was the real hero here?

[ForteNightshade]

The difference with Ysale, Estinien and Alph is they were all relevant to progressing the plot and their individual characters. We directly played a role in their development. With Lyse... you could remove her entirely and very little changes. Instead of Lyse being the one encouraging us to liberate Ala Mhigo, the Eorzean Alliance (as acknowledged above) or Raubahn does. M'naago does a lot more to flesh out the plot for Ala Mhigo than Lyse. Which is rather ironic since a fair bit of her story is locked behind crafting.

[CazzT]

Uh... the entire reason we even went to Ala Mhigo was because of Lyse. The story revolved her completely. The characters constantly shill her every chance they get and the narrative does little to suggest anything she says or does was wrong. Take her whole approach when we initially go to Ala Mhigo. While she does get called out briefly for insisting they still fight. Almost nothing is said about her opinions being incredibly bias and idealistic. No one really says anything about how difficult their lives have been, which is why they don't stand up. We're the ones who convinces them yet the narrative credits Lyse, who did next to nothing. And the narrative yet again backs up Lyse's aforementioned belief "you should always fight because!!!"

I disagree she was a support character. She took center stage for Ala Mhigo much in the same way Hien did for Doma. Except with Hien, the narrative made several points of acknowledging your presence and how it influenced him. That seldom, if ever, occurred with Lyse.

The reason we went to Ala Mhigo was to liberate it from the Garlean Empire. The fact that Lyse happened to be from Ala Mhigo was just a coincidence. We didn't go there because of her. Lyse gave credit to the WoL for everything we did for her. I don't know where you're getting the idea she took credit for everything. In fact, she usually downplays her role in whatever happens or outright gives credit to someone else entirely.

[Clover_Blake]

Yes, we went to free Ala Mhigo because Ilberd forced the situation. Lyse just wanted to participate too, but nothing was about her or because of her.

I also don't think she had a huge spotlight during the Ala Mhigo liberation. I tend to dislike characters who are given too much of a gratuite, special importance (*cough Minfilia*), but I didn't feel that Lyse was that kind. She was just doing her best like everyone else, trying hard for people to not get discouraged. She could be some sort of emotional support because war had just started for her, thus she wasn't broken like most other fighters who had already lost so much. She was always so pure and so hardworking that I can't dislike her.

(Sire note, but I wonder if the people who dislike her have played with English voices. I know that the English dub often changes the characters' personalities, so I wonder if it has something to do with the Lyse hate. I play with the original Japanese voices, for the record)

[HyoMinPark]

(Sire note, but I wonder if the people who dislike her have played with English voices. I know that the English dub often changes the characters' personalities, so I wonder if it has something to do with the Lyse hate. I play with the original Japanese voices, for the record)

I play with the Japanese dialogue. I still don’t like Lyse as a character. She just wasn’t pivotal to the storyline—we could have liberated Ala Mhigo and Doma without her.

[Daralii]

I play with the Japanese dialogue. I still don’t like Lyse as a character. She just wasn’t pivotal to the storyline—we could have liberated Ala Mhigo and Doma without her.

From what I remember, the bulk of her storyline was that command of the resistance was thrust upon her by a dying man because of who her father was, even though she knew that she wasn't fit for the job. She spent most of the time leaning on the WoL, the Scions, M'naago, and Raubahn before eventually working up the nerve to step into the shoes handed to her to lead her people in the final stretch and establish the provisional government. There was more to it in-universe than just marching into the royal palace and punching Zenos to the point of suicide.

[Enla]

From what I remember, the bulk of her storyline was that command of the resistance was thrust upon her by a dying man because of who her father was, even though she knew that she wasn't fit for the job. She spent most of the time leaning on the WoL, the Scions, M'naago, and Raubahn before eventually working up the nerve to step into the shoes handed to her to lead her people in the final stretch and establish the provisional government. There was more to it in-universe than just marching into the royal palace and punching Zenos to the point of suicide.

That's what we're told but it's rarely what we're shown. The main issue I have with Lyse as a character is that the story is telling us one thing about her, that she needs to learn and is vulnerable, and yet we almost never see it play out. Even her mistakes like with the Ananta barely cause her to miss a stride, when as a Scion that big of a mistake should have had major repercussions on her character. She literally let known group of tempered individuals into the capital because she wanted peace. If this was any other narrative but FF14 we'd have been given statistics on the amount of Ala Mhigans that were tempered due to her mistake and that had to be put to death as a result. But since this is FF14 all we get is Lyse just shrugging off what happened and saying she still wants to find a way to reach the Ananta. Then it's forgotten. Her biggest mistake as the new interim leader is never brought up again. We never see how it shapes her and helps her grow as a leader. In fact when next we meet she seems to have gotten over it entirely.

It's the same issue I had with ARR Minfillia honestly. We're told she's vital to the Scion's and that she does an immense amount of work behind the scenes... Except whenever we see her she's either A.) Being kidnapped or B.) Sitting behind a desk and making us do all the work. Informed character progression =/= good character progression, especially when the actions of the character run in contradiction to what we're being told. There's a genuinely good character in Lyse's concept, just like with Minfillia, but the writing lets both of them down in major and hard to ignore ways. (And they aren't the only ones, this game has a serious issue with SHOW DON'T TELL because they will almost always TELL us over SHOW us.)